Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted March 10, 2004 Leadership Team Share Posted March 10, 2004 Ok, so this ones been done to death previously, but with somewhat inconclusive results. Therefore can anyone give the definitive answer on the following points: 1. In a wet sump application, would removing the foam baffle aid return of oil to the sump therefore avoiding oil starvation at the pickup pipe? There's a very fine line between under and over filling. 2. Would the windage plate be best left in place without the foam? 3. In a dry sump application, is there a windage plate fitted - and if so is it the same as the wet one? Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F355GTS Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 stu can answer number 3, my Dry sumped Minister VHPD had a windage plate fitted however I seem ot remember Peter C. saying it wasn't a requirement?, it's still here although a bit dented, I think it's the same as the wet sump ones but if you want it to compare or straighten and fit then you are welcome to it Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted March 10, 2004 Author Leadership Team Share Posted March 10, 2004 Cheers Mark, I'll take it if that's ok - I'm currently trying to build 2 engines and I'm short of a few bits anyway Let me know how much you need to cover your costs of sending it. Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F355GTS Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Stu e-mail me your address and I'll ship it, next time you're making a donation to Ntl add a few quid on Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul McKenzie Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Stu, While you have the engines apart why don't you have a word with Dave Brooks who I know has produced good baffled sumps for K's without the foam, like he's done for my VX. He does this by extensive modding of the windage plates, and it's necessary to have the engine out to do it. Cheers, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave McCulloch Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Paul Do you have some more details of what he does? Is this a substitute for apollo or an "as well as" belt and braces mod. Thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheds Moderator Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Hi Stu, I thought the DS I sold you already had a windage plate in the bottom, or is this another part? Not having had my (running) engine in bits I don't know what is/isn't in there. Hope your various builds are going OK. As for me, mine's getting prettier. Slowly, but the rate of improvement is still faster than the overall rate of decay... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul McKenzie Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Dave, He welds bits on to the windage tray. He's done a lot of this stuff for rally cars and race series which are not allowed dry sumping. It wouldn't substitute for an Apollo as it won't achieve any deaeration of the oil. The point is to try and keep the oil pickup immersed in oil. IMHO it's certainly not a complete answer like a DS system, but it's a reasonable half way house, and gets rid of the foam baffle, and the hassle and cost of replacing it and the gaskets. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted March 10, 2004 Author Leadership Team Share Posted March 10, 2004 Notquitesooldbatteredsupersport - the plate in the bottom of the sump is a baffle that stops the oil moving out of the drain channel - the one I am reffering to is the one that sandwiches the foam to the bottom of the bearing ladder. I understand this to be called a windage plate? Someone answer the questions ..... pleeeeaaaaaasssse ! Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul McKenzie Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Stu, 1. Obviously yes it will return oil easier, but your shotened pick-up will need to be lengthened and you'll still knacker the engine from oil starvation on cornering 2. Windage plate does same job with/without foam 3. Doesn't matter, as far as I can see, but it is removed for the VX application and I think for the K pace DS application. What you trying to do, Mate? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted March 10, 2004 Author Leadership Team Share Posted March 10, 2004 Paul, Foam is above plate which is above pick-up pipe. Pick-up pipe is pressed hard on bottom of sump - I'd need to cut a hole in the sump if I lengthened the pipe It's specifically details regarding the K that I'm after. Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul McKenzie Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Oh, so on the K there's a lump of foam between the windage plate and the bearing ladder? What's that for then Is that in the standard Rover set-up, or is it a Caterham mod? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted March 10, 2004 Author Leadership Team Share Posted March 10, 2004 Caterham mod. As far as I'm aware it is to reduce the frothing of the oil - I think it has sod all effect on stabilising the oil during cornering. Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted March 11, 2004 Author Leadership Team Share Posted March 11, 2004 Can anybody out there add anything? Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom7 Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Stu, One of the guys at the Worcs area runs his with a QED foam baffle. This is basically a huge lump of foam that *fills* the sump pan. i.e - remove sump, cut lump of foam so that its level with top of pan, cut 3" hole for oil pick-up, throw Caterham foam thingy away and hey presto! no oil surge issues. He swears by it, after 5000 miles of touring and numerous track days / sprints he recorded no break up issues and the foam was as good as the day he fitted it. He has never had *any* surge issues. Reckons the price is about £20. I'll be giving QED a call myself tomorrow an asking them about it. I trust the guy who tells me this, you may have met Pete Cox when you visited us recently? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RESOLVIWOLF Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 FOAM = THE DEVIL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom7 Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 I probably meant mesh rather than foam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted March 11, 2004 Author Leadership Team Share Posted March 11, 2004 Tom - I guess the engine in question is the Scholar converted one that Peter was building? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom7 Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Stu, No he is dry sump (and 210bhp and sequential gearbox and....)with that one. He installed the QED mesh *from new* on his original 160 bhp wet sump & apollo engine. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 My theory for what it's worth (and I'd be pleased for an alternative explanation if I'm wrong)...I don't think the baffle has any effect on surge or preventing the pick-up pipe picking up air. I suspect the foam delays return of oil to the sump, therefore keeping the bottom end bathed on oil for longer so that it matters less when the pick-up picks up air....any thoughts - am I talking a load of boll***s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted March 13, 2004 Author Leadership Team Share Posted March 13, 2004 There is certainly a line of thought that it prevents oil returning freely to the sump. However air in the oil will eventually knacker the bearings. I'm pretty convinced it is only there to break down foaming on the top of the oil, which it doesn't do very effectively. Next time my sumps open, the foam's coming out and I'm going to try it for a while with only the plate. That is unless I muster the remaining bits i need for a dry-sump in the meantime! Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 JP, bathing the bottom end in oil doesn't help where it is needed - in the working surfaces of the bearings. The foam cannot possibly help with surge, so can only be something to reduce foaming. Its effectiveness is marginal. It does at least do its de-foaming act on the sump side of the pump - a good intention. Whether it does the de-foaming in any way effectively is questionable. As with all such things there can be a load of different theories put around, each of which only gets disproven when engines start blowing up. "Proving" that an oil solution solves a problem is more difficult and involves rather better measurements than you get from the standard gauges. The best solution is obviously a properly designed dry sump. Back to Stu's original questions... 1. No it won't aid oil getting to the pickup. The de-foaming is probably a good thing. Having the foam break up in the sump is obviously a bad thing. 2. The windage plate is sensible in a wet sump set up. 3. In my opinion there is no need for a windage plate in the dry sump setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Just had another thought about differences between the wet and the dry sump setup. In the wet sump, the wolverine sump gasket has a wide flange that is another attempt to prevent oil sloshing around. Caterham recommend silicone sealing the dry sump, so no gasket and no windage plate effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Cheers PC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 So Peter I get the impression you're saying the foam just reduces aeration (foaming). Therefore the foam has no part to play if an Apollo is fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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