julians Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 Does anyone have any experience of the performance of either of these brake sets. The one from James whiting looks tempting as it apparently doesent need the master cylinder changing, and is significantly cheaper. I have heard that although changing the master cylinder with the caterham set is not strictly required, it is recommended. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 Julian, I have a std master cylinder on my car and it is absolutely no problem. I think the change of master cyl may be a sales pitch..... You can get the EBC pads for the AP setup - not sure about the Alcon. The vented disks on the AP setup are expensive, but they do not wear out. I have run a set for 15,000 miles plus of very agressive driving and they dont have any wear marks at all. The Alcons use the std triumph/sierra discs, made of the same pattern part grade materials. Arnie Webb The Fat Bloke blush.gif in a not so Slow Vauxhall wink.gif See the R500 eater here See the Le Mans Trip Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julians Posted April 25, 2001 Author Share Posted April 25, 2001 Ok, so if it doesent need a new master cylinder, we are just down to a cost issue. Are the caterham brake worth paying the extra for over the alcon/james whiting set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 Thinking about it logically, if you increase the slave volume of a master/slave hydraulic setup, then you will increase the amount of travel inherent in the master, but will reduce the amount of effort required. The Caterham race master cylinder just allows you to offset the extra travel the big front brakes will introduce, at the expense of increasing the effort required. Personally I think it's a great setup. I've got both the big brakes, and the bigger master cyl, and the movement is next to nothing. It needs a firm push but I'm a big lad..! wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 Considering you're a shortarse, V7, I think the adminstrator should intervene and remove your lewd posting... Peter "Over-elongated" Carmichael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Abbott Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 Julian, I've just been thru' the same debate - and ended up with the Alcons from Mr. Whiting - mainly thru cost. I've yet to fit them, but they are superbly made and Alcon themselves are very helpful. You can also use EBC pads as James supplies these with the kit. On a tangent - I'm planning to measure brake distances before and after the conversion (standard calipers v's Alcon) using a AP22 meter - I'll put the figures up here if anyone cares Nigel Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 So, Mr PC has become PC then..? wink.gif Where in the world are you Peter..? Are you going to Emerald on Sunday..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 Superlights, Superlight-R's and R500s all ship with the big front brakes and standard master cylinder AFAIK. The JW kit uses standard disks I believe, which are much much much cheaper than the vented ones the AP kit uses. Mike Edited by - Mike Bees on 25 Apr 2001 13:13:21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 I certainly had to specify the bigger master cyl when ordering V7, but I thought the R500 had them as standard. No matter. Just curious. I was looking into improved rear brakes, as I don't like the Caterham option. What I don't like is the fact that to comply with law, you have to have a second caliper for the handbrake. Isn't there a decent rear brake caliper that couldbe sourced off another car for this purpose? I haven't looked, but my Scooby Legacy's handbrake is simply phenominal. I dare not pull on the handbrake lever whilst moving or the rear of the car would tear off. I'll investigate some more when I've the time, but there must be a dozen lightweight alloy calipers out there which are better that the Caterham ones. Anyone got any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 Considering that the add-on rear handbrake calipers are of a split design so you space them to the width of the disk I have a vain hope that I can render them compatible with the new vented rear disks. I feel a project coming on. Not that I didn't run the big brakes without a handbrake at all for the two years prior to my MOT. Edited by - Peter Carmichael on 25 Apr 2001 15:27:45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Dixon Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 Julian, I fitted the James Whiting kit last year as never had much confidence in the standard brakes. The car always felt as if it was braking from the rear, there was not much feel and little progression. The James Whiting kit cured all that. Like yourself I considered the Caterham upgrade. However as most of my driving is on the road the James Whiting kit appeared better value for money.I have also fitted EBC Green Stuff pads which James Whiting provided. The brakes are now excellent, much better stopping power, better feel and better progression. When you think about it for such a light car do you really need large venting discs, especially when the existing discs are stuck in the air stream anyhow. Another advatage of stickign with the exisitng discs is that replacements are much cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Gillet Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 Nigel, I would be very much interested in getting your figures when available. Cheers, Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elie boone Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 I mounted the Alcon brakes on a friends car with grooved disc's and they perform perfect and they are half of the weight compaired to AP brakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss_Tony Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 V7 Would it be possible to use the vented rear discs and some 'normal' calipers to suit? It would seem the easiest option. From memory the Subaru could have rear discs and calipers for the footbrake and a small drum inside the disc for the handbrake. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHRIS CLARK Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 Geoff D.question.gif Interesting point re. the vented brakes/airflow etc. Would you think that say 'Minilites' etc are better than say 'Prisoners' as the M/l's have less blanking effect as there is less alloy in the way. Could the 'spokes' move more air around? uuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmm ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartG Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 A few extra points... AP and Alcon calipers use identical pads, they are very similar but differ in piston sizes, width of discs they accomodate and diameter of discs required. I can't see the piston size being significant in terms of performance, it's the ratio of m/cylinder piston to caliper piston that affects pedal pressure. Basically AP calipers have bigger pistons and therefore require a bigger m/cylinder piston. Alcons were designed with smaller pistons to work with the standard m/cylinder. The AP discs (which are made by Alcon) have a larger diameter I think this must help their performance although the benefit of ventilation on a seven is questionable and it's this that adds most of the weight. It's also true that with bigger pistons all round the AP set up has more fluid in the system and more fluid means more sponge in theory. Having said that with the AP system the pedal is hardly sprongy. My ideal system would use large diameter drilled but not vented discs on lightweight m/cycle type carriers with Alcon Calipers. All of the above is larely accedemic as all set ups fitted to sevens have enough power to lock the wheels, the trick is getting the balance right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Bucket Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 I have just fitted the Alcons with EBC Greenstuff pads. Absolutely delighted, so much better than the original setup and were superb at recent trackday. OK, so being a 1.6 X/F Baby Bucket doesn't reach the same terminal velociy as some of its faster cousins, but I'm well pleased with the investment. At the moment I'm running standard discs, but might fit some of James Whiting's drilled variety. Email me off line if you want further info on fitting etc. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 "When you think about it for such a light car do you really need large venting discs, especially when the existing discs are stuck in the air stream anyhow." No. Alcons = MUCH Less weight (+ Magnesium wheels? the way to go), less cost, less hassle fitting. Jimmy the Fish has sussed it. Do you sprint or hillclimb? Do you drive in the real world? Then you DON'T need vented disks... or do you go to work down an alpine pass? No contest. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elie boone Posted April 26, 2001 Share Posted April 26, 2001 Chris,Minilite claimed that there design gave max cooling for the brakes and still had a strong wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R2D2 Posted April 26, 2001 Share Posted April 26, 2001 As Elie said the early advertising that Minilte used in the sixties claimed that their design created airflow through the wheel, which significantly improved brake cooling. I think that this was theoretical and mostly BS because I don't think that there were any good CFD models in those days. I have used many different styles of wheels on Rally Escorts for years and I can't say that I have ever been able to tell the difference in brake performance due to cooling effects of the wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R2D2 Posted April 26, 2001 Share Posted April 26, 2001 I think Stewart's comments about brake balance is very important and the arguments about the correct calipers need to be looked at in detail. If, as has been said, the piston size in the front brakes is increased it is clear that the clamping force that is stopping the wheel increases. This must mean that for a given tyre/wheel combination the pedal effort needed to lock the wheels will be reduced. The improved pad material that we all fit when we change brakes probably has a higher coefficient of friction than the more standard pads and this will also reduce pedal pressure. If the rear brakes are left standard then for a lower pedal pressure the rear wheel clamping force will be reduced and the rear brakes will give a smaller contribution to stopping the car. It may be that increasing the size of the front brakes without making sure the balance is maintained could increase the effective stopping distance of a car under these circumstances. This argument is only true ifit is quite easy to lock the front wheels with the standard brakes. My car has standard brakes and with Mintex C1144 the pedal feel is terrible and I would like to fit new brakes. I have been trying to find a set up to buy with a properly designed bias bar and a balanced set of front and rear brakes but I can't find one for a Caterham. My car is 1989 and has the old cast bracket which makes it even more difficult. The Birkin (sorry) has a bias system fitted as standard but it won't fit into my chassis. Does anyone know where to buy one? I would also be very interested to see the stopping distances that are acheived with the big front brakes when the rears have been left standard. Edited by - chris flavell on 26 Apr 2001 20:12:20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted April 27, 2001 Share Posted April 27, 2001 Chris - why not try a change of pad first? I'm also using Mintex 1144's and am not keen on the feel they give (I'm sure 1155's were the recommended pad for the fronts, but couldn't get these and was told they'd be OK). I'm going to try some Greenstuff pads soonish (next month or so) so can let you know if it improves things. C7 AJM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Russell Posted April 27, 2001 Share Posted April 27, 2001 I use Mintex 1122 pads on my car, with AP 4 pots, and the AP big 'race' master cylinder. Very little slop in the pedal, a heavy but very effective set up. I presently use the standard rear pads but plan to upgrade to a softer compound. The 1122 is a 'hillclimb' compound, and comes in effectively from cold but maintains bite up to pretty high temps....ok for road use but probably too soft for trackdays. I do have big vented discs which seem to keep the temperature down though. The Mintex pads obtained from Techcraft in Warwickshire, although a little more expensive than EBC Greenstuff, I believe. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casbar Posted April 27, 2001 Share Posted April 27, 2001 I was looking at Alcon brakes as well. Then my mate showed me a copy of a cat thats advertising Brembo 4 pot calipers as a direct replacement with standard discs for Caterhams. I'm not sure if its for Ford or Triumph hubs though. Still need to check. The price is around 270 pounds for two. I can't remember the companies name, but will post the web site as soon as I get hold of it Rgds Robert Edited by - casbar on 27 Apr 2001 13:40:42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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