Jason Plato Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 I know Rob , I'm not "having a go" . best bet ????? ............... do a double drive with me Lotus 7 Club Speed Champion 2003 South Wales Area Organiser C7 TOP Edited by - Dave Jackson on 29 Jan 2004 15:42:50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ranson Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 what about the everyday owner of a R400 or SLR or VX that justs wants to be competitive without the wallet racing ??? The basic conundrum of any competition. How to allow those who don't want to make the effort to be competitive still be competitive... I think it usually boils down to the tighter you make the regulations the more it costs to buy a competitive edge, and some people will always spend the money. As a disinterested party the current regs seem pretty good to me, just monitor as the range of cars being entered changes and adjust slightly to taste. But to start examing exhaust lengths and looking up model years is just to open too big a can of worms. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Perry Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Who would want the job of eligability Steward ? A thankless task I suspect for a volunteer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Dave - I may take you up on that generous offer.... 😬 Paul - youo comments make a lot of sense, and I guess are borne out of your experiences with motorsport I was being very pedantic in somee of my arguuments mainly to highlight some of the potential pitfalls I could envisage... Graham - now all at once take one step back 😬 rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 oh and another thing (yes Ken was right 😬) Dave - iif hypothetically you took your 1.6 enginee from last year and just swapped the tb's for plenum, what sort of power / torque wouldl you expect after a RR session 🤔 and would it be useable/drivable 🤔 rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted January 29, 2004 Area Representative Share Posted January 29, 2004 Rob, I've done a little research. I understand that the limit for a 1.6K on a plenum is around 165bhp. Modifications provide the best results with carefully selected and matched components. Dave's car may well make significantly less than this with a plenum. I understand that if too wild a cam set up is used, the plenum won't allow sufficient flow to take advantage of the cams, but the plenum adversly affects the induction pulses. I believe Dave used 1227 cams that are quite wild, but his setup has benefitted significantly from experimentation with inlet tract lengths. The limiting factor would appear to be the plenum, or indeed, any plenum. Where Daves car may make 40bhp more on TB's than a plenum, the difference between alternative plenums may only be 5bhp. I think it's also likely that a car that's tuned to the limit on a plenum may be quite peaky and a lot more demanding to drive than a more modestly tuned car with a wider spread of torque. In addition, these highly tuned cars need a programable ECU. If a plenum (any plenum) and a standard ECU were specified, then the power limit would be around 155bhp, and easily policed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 More advocacy of the devilish kind..... The newer cars come with ECU's from MBE. The cables to map these are readily available and the passwords are becoming known. So when is an MBE standard, how would you tell? I agree with everything people have said, keep it simple, don't change what works. And don't impose petty restrictions against changing things for the sake of it. The thought of people being forced to fit cats for example makes me cringe, we go sprinting because the bureaucrats and tree huggers have ruined the fun in driving on the road, don't allow them into this too. Oh and ban the bike engines from class 6 because they keep beating me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted January 29, 2004 Area Representative Share Posted January 29, 2004 Is it not only R300's and R400's or 160bhp roadsports that have MBE's, that are class 4/5 anyway? Don't all up to 140bhp still use MEMS 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Richard - that was the repsonse I was kind of hoping would come out The limiting factor would appear to be the plenum, or indeed, any plenum. Where Daves car may make 40bhp more on TB's than a plenum, the difference between alternative plenums may only be 5bhp. I think it's also likely that a car that's tuned to the limit on a plenum may be quite peaky and a lot more demanding to drive than a more modestly tuned car with a wider spread of torque. what I was trying to get at was that the plenum was the major restricting factor so as long as this is maintained no matter what other mods are done you are not likely to see more than 160, and even if it was higher the car may well be undrivable. So the rules as they stand are quite good and fair.... maybe a way forward is similar to Daves suggestion for class 5, split class 3 into 2 class 3a - as class3 now + a restriction that is for completly unmodified (what ever than means) 1.6K / 1.8K's, no cars of any engine variant can run a24 compound acb's class 3b - for modified plenum K's and cars running a24 acb's that conform to class 3a engine regs although I am not sure there would be enough interest in class 3b to make it worth the while ☹️, this would satisfy the novices and 1 event per year entrants, whilst at the same time allowing others who want to do the entire championship an upgrade route that is not head modification and dual tb's... just another thought rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted January 29, 2004 Area Representative Share Posted January 29, 2004 Rob, I sort of agree, but think we may be creating too many classes, that may be poorly supported. Perhaps class 3 should stay as it is but class 2 should be split? I think the 1.8K issue will only increase the size of class 2 but less so class 3. This lower class 2 could specify:- plenum, MEMS, short 4 branch +cat, list 1a's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 It will be interesting to see what my 2003 engine would be like on a plenum . But I've sold it now , so we will have to try the plenum on the *new* engine 😬 Lotus 7 Club Speed Champion 2003 South Wales Area Organiser C7 TOP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Kipper Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 The discussions so far have all centred around the class structure and how this can be changed (or not) to ensure that cars of roughly equal power compete against each other. The one big variable that has not been included in this equation is the driver. As we all know, we are all quick drivers but some are quicker than others and will always be so regardless of the car they are driving. The oft quoted example of the Academy car winning Class 2 last year at Curborough 2 is a case in point. I think that we are becoming too tied down with detail and are going to end up whistling up our own 🙆🏻 ❗. I don't believe that a cat or non-cat, or standard against 4-2-1 exhaust, or 48m versus 52mm throttlebody is going to make any significant difference in a timed event which, on some courses, lasts less than a minute. Have a championship by all means as this adds a certain spice to the whole proceedings. But let's not forget that for the majority of people sprinting with the Club is about having fun and not taking it all that seriously. If someone wants to take it seriously, there are plenty of national sprint and hillclimb events that they can enter where to win doesn't just require enthusiasm but a large bank balance. Was that 2p's worth or 3p's worth 🤔 Kipper Fun is not a straight line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Locust Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Go the other way then. No classes but devise a handicapping system based on car type, mods etc. and driver experience. Just dont ask me to allocate the handicaps Ian Green and Silver Roadsport 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Kipper - most of the detail/gumpf I have been spouting has been as devils advocate I whole heartedly agree with I think that we are becoming too tied down with detail and are going to end up whistling up our own . I don't believe that a cat or non-cat, or standard against 4-2-1 exhaust, or 48m versus 52mm throttlebody is going to make any significant difference in a timed event which, on some courses, lasts less than a minute. soooooo lets keep the rules as they are now I think we would all agree and it has been said on this thread that the driver is the biggest area for disadvantage/advantage I sprint with the L7 to have fun primarily but also to compete, if we did it with no timing just for the fun I doubt anyone would enter. It is the competition element that makes it more attarctive for most than normal road or trackday driving also I would have thought that most of the current cars in our series would be uncompetitive as they stand in other sprint /hillclimb championships, so your comment abouut money is valid. This is again is what makes the l7 chmapionshipi attractive to most as we do not have to compete against disadvantages becuase they are so fast 😬 just another 2p's worth .... rob Edited by - robmar on 30 Jan 2004 08:36:34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 It has been said from the start of this thread that we should not get tied up in detail , if we wish to police anything then it would have be just basic easy to see items . Kipper - your comment to the effect that "if you want to play with the big boys then enter a national championship" ......... I'm sure many would already consider class 4 & 5 as national championship pace and the pace of the academy guys is stunning , the budgets of some in the L7C championship is not minor and the enthusiasum is certainly there . Not having a go at you mate ....... With 9 rounds and more than 110 entrants in 2003 , it is not a small championship . We should not undersell ourselves and the work which has been achieved by organisers and competitors in promoting the championship that must continue to grow My concern for the future is that costs should be managed by the rules . I keep harking on , but tyres is one example and a major budget factor . If everyone goes to A24 ACB just because they are the quickest tyre and everyone else uses them , then the racing will be exactly the same , but cost an extra couple of £1000 per season , plus it will promote further the trailering to events , and not encourage "standard" or lightly modified cars into class 3 & 5 . The championship should cover 4 types of competitor in my opinion . 1 those who have a car in "standard trim or very lightly modified " that would not be class leading competitve at a national level in the old Class 2a upto 1700cc format - you know 140 - 160 bhp etc etc 2 Those who have a car that is competitive by its specification from new , but do not wish to purchase specific items like tyres or trailer to go sprinting and be competitive - SLR's , R500 's R400's , R300's , 200bhp Vx's etc etc 3 Those who have the budget and desire to purchase all the kit to make basically a road legal sprint car , and trailer to events with a £15K engine , expensive tyres , suspension etc etc . 4 Those who have a purpose built sprint / hillclimb car , developed specifically for this task , no road registered . It is from the above that I believe the classes should evolve to maintain both competition and manage costs - to be based on capacity , basic induction method , tyres and road registered status . It is these 4 items that can be easily policed . Sorry if I'm boring you ....... I'll shut up now Dave Lotus 7 Club Speed Champion 2003 South Wales Area Organiser C7 TOP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted January 30, 2004 Area Representative Share Posted January 30, 2004 Ian, Handicaping, now that would be a "can of worms" ❗ On a serious note, I agree with a point Dave made somewhere (where was that, I can't find it now?) about A24 ACB10's. The ONLY REASON to use these tyres, is to be ultimately competitive on sprints. These tyres have NO OTHER USE ❗ 🤔How easy is it to tell A24's from any other compound 🤔 These tyres appear to be a significant "upgrade", (at significant cost) but these investments are worn out after a season. Perhaps some of the competitive class 2 runners would change tyres and run in class 3 if A24's were banned 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 > How easy is it to tell A24's from any other compound Very easy. Each Avon tyre has a 4 figure code moulded into the sidewall. There is a different code for each tread type, size and compound. So an A24 compound 8-22/13 ACB10 will have a different code from an A30 compound ACB in the same size. All you need is someone with a set of the above mentioned tyres and read off the code number. Thats not to say I agree with banning them though. I ran these tyres for a couple of years and each set lasted me a season of about 10 sprints plus road miles (though not a lot). I agree you'd trash them in 30 mins on a track day but they're fine on the road and nice to sprint on. Just because some of you guys do trackdays why prevent other people running the best tyres for their use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david nelson Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Here goes. This will be my 1st year of sprinting my 7 is a 1.8k 140bhp SL. I am please that the rules for 04 have placed me in to group 2 or 3 , but if I want to be compedative I need to get some a24 ACB's or drop down into class 2. I a currently on CR500 so either way there would be an expence. If a24 ACB's are that much better than the rest, then banning them would even out the playing field. I agree we should try to keep cost down for us on a limited bugget and let those with the money spend it in another class. What ever happens I just hope I enjoy this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 David - not entirely true there are people run 32's and cr500's who have been competitive in class 3 last year. for example lets take Llandows results last year (am going to ignore dave mcfarlane as he was way out plus it is a xflow) 2nd- Me- 1600 Sl - acb10s 24 compound = 84.11 3rd - Adrian Williams 1600 roadsport - yoko 32s standard compound = 84.31 (+.2s) 4th - Steve Robinson - 1600 SL - cr500's = 84.66 (+.55s) (some might say my time is poor based on my tyre choice, however I have a long list of excuses I can roll out as to why I was no faster 😬) these are all in 1600 cars so potentiialy your 1800 should have a minor power advantage I guess you have to ask yourself what youur expectations are in terms of being competitive in your first season 🤔 and is it something that you enjoy 🤔 and if it is soemthing you do enjoy then upgrading may be a route you take to get that extra 0.01s 😬 I think a lot of this game is also about track knowledge and you only gain that through expereince, there will be people faster than others at certain venues just from that alone... As everyone has said it is mainly about enjoyment. Come and say hello at the first sprint or the february meeting I do not think you should ban the use of a24 tyres as Chelspeed says, am happy to be in a seperate class if people feel angst towards them, but I guess that would depend on numbers... I think Daves breakdown of the 4 types of competitor we have is generally representative of thee types of peopole in the l7 championship...and then split based onn some notional enngine size perhaps [:] Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david nelson Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 thank for the above info. so there still hope on CR500, now need to learn to drive. well it should all be new and fun. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted January 30, 2004 Area Representative Share Posted January 30, 2004 David, I'd agree with Rob. I think a lot of this game is also about track knowledge and you only gain that through expereince, there will be people faster than others at certain venues just from that alone... I've now done 6 sprints at Curborough in my standard 1.6 Roadsport. I'd been looking at results from previous club events at the venue and set myself the target of "less than 70 seconds". I was thrilled to do a 69.07 run. Seeking a better time, I changed the front antiroll bar and replaced the wheels and tyres with the class leading RE720's. On my second event I was most disapointed to do a best of 68.6!! I did a test day, and had a little coaching on "the quick way" around Curborough, and had quite a few runs around the course (gaining myself a bit of a reputation for spinning off 😳 ❗) whilst trying these techniques. At my 6th event at at the venue, I managed a 65.25 run, despite having made a mistake or two 😬. (It's most satisfying to beat cars with almost twice the power and sticky tyres 😬) I would say it's best to come and have a go. If you enjoy it and you're competitive, great, if not, you've not lost too much. What ever class you run in, the banter between competitors is great and a really entertaining day out ❗ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Dave - yep s till hope, and if it is wet cr500's are the tyre of choicec for class3 I wouldguess Richard What ever class you run in, the banter between competitors is great and a really entertaining day out 😬 😬 *thumbup* rob Edited by - robmar on 30 Jan 2004 14:38:57 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver 21 Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Been busy but have watched this posting for a couple of days without making comment and I don't intend to now. This is what the 28th is all about and we need to open this to the wider audience not just the people that have responded to this posting. Yours up to ears in work and a car with no seats or MOT *thumbdown* *thumbdown* Graham Competition Secretary How many events for 2004?????? (It looks like 9) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 thought you had been conspicuous by your abscence BB think thee debate has been relatively healthy so far 😬 looking forward to the 28th rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 think thee debate has been relatively healthy so far *thumbup* I think the meeting on the 28th needs to have some debates structured on the agenda . I think this thread could provide some of the agenda ? Lotus 7 Club Speed Champion 2003 South Wales Area Organiser C7 TOP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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