Mick Day Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 After reading much discussion on this there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer - is this piece of kit necessary when using an anti-cavitation (apollo) tank? Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 I must have missed the discussion... ...but my car runs both. Just 'cos the Apollo has taken a lot of the air out of the thrashed oil, doesn't mean it's a good idea to leave it sloshing around the sump though (if my understanding of the purpose of the baffle is correct...) What are the supposed advantages (other than, presumably, a slightly higher oil volume...)? Keep BC free and open for ALL. Membership No. 43xx Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Edited by - Myles on 24 Jan 2004 17:14:33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted January 24, 2004 Author Share Posted January 24, 2004 Myles I really meant much discussion about changing the baffle but little concensus on its purpose. What does it do: stop the oil sloshing around, provide some measure of de-airation?..........or a combination of both. So has anyone removed it totally & what is the result? Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul McKenzie Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 I think it might do something, but it's a thoroughly poor belt & braces idea. Mine's been removed from my VX, but only with the fabrication of a baffled sump. I think you'd be asking for trouble if you removed it without any sump mods. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 It' supposed to be a baffle.. Every Caterham bottom end I have had apart has shown a degree of clogging of the oil pick up strainer with small pieces of foam baffle where it has slowly disintegrated. One in particular was almost completely clogged with it. I believe that it is a liability. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Oily, do you have any suggestions regarding the real longevity of the item?? I believe the official view is replace every 12k... Keep BC free and open for ALL. Membership No. 43xx Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted January 24, 2004 Author Share Posted January 24, 2004 Oily So are you saying, on balance, it's likely to be more beneficial removing the foam & running without? Has anyone produced a proper baffled K series sump for Caterham's? Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahatma Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Paul, Have you got any more details on the fabrication of the baffle in your sump ? It's something that's been on my mind for a while, any pics or 'best practice' ideas would be extremely welcome. Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul McKenzie Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Andy, Dave Brook's engines at Crewe fabricated mine, and I know he has also done the same for K-series engines. But IIRC, it's an engine out job, and maybe more...it can't be done simply by removing the sump and windage plate. He also fabricates a new oil pick-up. So it's really something to have done at the same time as having other work done on your engine. Give him a ring and he'll explain. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahatma Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Thanks Paul, engine is in bits at the moment, so probably a good time to give him a call. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted January 25, 2004 Leadership Team Share Posted January 25, 2004 Do dry sump engines do away with the whole foam/plate assembly - if so is there anything that replaces it? Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 DS engines dont need baffling since there is no sump bound oil to slop around, the foam baffle just hinders the return of oil to the sump. A conventional DS'd engine will usually run a windage/draining plate under the crank, but in the case if the K, the ladder construction makes that difficult to do. Several owners that I know of have decided to run without the baffle because of the fragmentation problem and have had no ill effects. Life of the baffle seems to vary, one particular owner had his foam baffle completely dissolve in less than 1500 miles. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted January 25, 2004 Author Share Posted January 25, 2004 From what I understand it's a different windage plate & no foam baffle. In effect the sump is not a reservoir for oil so there's little need for a baffle. Just to repeat has anyone done away with the foam baffle & just relied on the anti-cavitation (apollo) tank? Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHRIS CLARK Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Mick. Let me/us know if YOU try this and get away with it (or not!). I just change it every year as a routine. Same with the little yellow disc/offcut in the cam box cover where the anti-cav return pipe inlets into the cambox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted January 25, 2004 Author Share Posted January 25, 2004 Oil change coming up in the Spring so will suck it & see. Would be nice to hear from some of those who have removed the foam baffle as to their thoughts. I'll keep everyone informed on my exploits. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHRIS CLARK Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Well I have those two items on my bench waiting for this lazy s*d to get out there and do the same! Oh doesn't summer seem a long time ago and yet still a long long way off ☹️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RESOLVIWOLF Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 the foam baffle service interval needs sorting... it can break up in no time, let alone 12k miles mine did just that and it cost me 2.5k for a new engine... id replace the sponge very regularly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Oily makes a good point about the purpose of the foam - to hinder the return of oil to the sump. Given that the pick up pipe emerges BELOW the foam baffle in the sump, shouldn't removing the foam allow oil to return to the sump more quicky , reducing the risk of the pick up pipe picking up air on hard cornering??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Gillet Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Any relationship between foam dissolution and oil brand ? Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul McKenzie Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 JP, I think you've got it wrong The idea of the foam seems to be to stop oil flowing away from the pick up area under hard cornering....whether or not it accomplishes that is another question altogether Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smutly Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 I bought my 1400 SuperSport last April. It came with a brand spanking new engine. The guy a bought it from said he didn't put a foam baffle in as in his words they were a waste of time. He certainly tracked the car and owned it for 5 years and many miles before it's rebuild. I don't know if the lack of foam was with the new engine or perhaps he ran without it on the old. He did mention this problem of the foam breaking down though. I haven't tracked the car, but certainly on 'normal' road use I have not experienced any problems. The test drive he put me through (scared the hell out of me) didn't reveal any issues either and that was pretty dam extreme. I think I'll carry on without myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHRIS CLARK Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Smutly. How many miles before a rebuild? My 1400 SS (road use only admittedly) was removed at 43,000 miles only to fit an 1800. Engine still sweet as a nut and that had had its foam baffle changed on a regular basis. The brand spanking new engine MAY have been because of the no foam routine had led to the originals premature demise.................... but maybe not. Interesting 🤔 as to if certain oils break down the foam quicker than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted January 26, 2004 Author Share Posted January 26, 2004 When was the last true 1.4 SS sold by Caterham? Quite some time ago. So it seems to have lasted some time without the foam. If it didn't have a foam baffle for most of its life & then had to have a replacement engine............... who knows what reason? Jackal's experience at 2.5k with foam blocking the galleries is not a nice story. So who knows until we suck it & see. What we need is evidence based info from those who run no foam baffle but have an Apollo........ I'll bravely go I think. However researching Pace DS at present so may move sideways. Mick Edited by - Mick Day on 26 Jan 2004 19:56:00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 Paul, The problem is, is that the foam is held up beneath the bearing ladder by a plate. The pick up pipe emerges to pick up oil from the sump below the foam and plate. There seems to be nothing to prevent sideways sloshing around of the oil away from the pick up pipe within the space of the sump. Also, as the sump is sloped and the capacity is less on the left side of the sump, why do we only tend to notice oil pressure drops on hard right cornering? Surely it should be the other way round as there is more space to accommodate oil on the right hand side of the sump??? I suspect that the baffle, by hindering the return of oil to the sump, keeps the bottom end bathed in oil longer, so short spells of picking up air on hard cornering don't matter so much?? Any ideas. (I recently changed mine and it looked fine after 16,000miles on Castrol RS. It would be nice to ditch it if possible...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave McCulloch Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 From memory the oil pickup pipe is on the RHS of the engine - hence right hand bends will tend to push the oil away from the pickup. I think the sump being sloped may be a red herring as the base of the sump is horizontal - it is the mating surface to the engine which is sloped. I replaced my foam baffle last year (5yrs old, but only 7.5k miles) and it looked in no different shape to the new one I replaced it with. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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