Nigel Abbott Posted April 5, 2001 Share Posted April 5, 2001 Does anyone have any experience of fitting a traction control system to thier Caterham (Racelogic)? Due to a leaden right foot (coupled with a complete lack of self-control!), I find that my acceleration is being significantly lessened by copious amounts of wheel spin. Thus, the idea of Traction Control came upon me last night. I know that such systems are illegal for racing - but my needs are 99% road and 1% track day work - so it doesn't matter. So has anyone fitted a system (I only know of the Racelogic system) and if so, how easy was it to fit? What difference did it make? Thanks Nigel Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted April 5, 2001 Share Posted April 5, 2001 Arnie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted April 5, 2001 Share Posted April 5, 2001 Nigel, I have the Injection system which custs fueling to reduce power Its difficult to fit as you have to hack your injection wiring loom apart to intercept the injectors, (I actually made a completely new loom as it was easier) The wheel sensors are easy to fit if you have std brakes, but if you have big rear brakes you have to build an inboard arrangement as the sensors can no longer be fitted to the hubs due to lack of space and different disc position. If you fix the sensors to anything which gets hot (di dion ears etc.) they just have a thermal breakdown (permnanent) On the road you can plant the right foot on roundabouts in the wet knowing (if you calibrated it correctly) the power will cut when the oversteer reaches a certain level. The effect on acceleration times is great so long as you have sticky tyres and generally much better results are obtained in the dry if you run slicks. You are able to drive pretty hard in the wet though - in my car I can press on a bit which cannot be doen with the TC switched off as the car is just all over the place (ACB10 syndrome) One final note - the TC incorporated into some ECU's (DAT for example) only operates up to certain speeds (around 50mph). A powerful Seven can spin the wheels at speeds far in excess of this! Hope the above helps. Arnie Webb The Fat Bloke blush.gif in a not so Slow Vauxhall wink.gif See the R500 eater here See the Le Mans Trip Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FH Posted April 5, 2001 Share Posted April 5, 2001 How about selling the car and getting something with "driver aids" as part of the fixtures and fittings, before you end up arguing with a tree wink.gif Or try driving in bare feet - you get more "feel" for the throttle that way thumbsup.gif FH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted April 5, 2001 Share Posted April 5, 2001 Arnie The dta traction control you mention is actually launch control for standing starts. They have just developed a 4 wheel sensor traction control system that is ecu based so it interacts with the fueling/ignition map.cost is 895 i think for ecu with it fitted,you will also have to fit a new loom to suit however. We had a demonstration at work with racelogic with their z3m bmw which was very enlightening around the ind est r/abouts in the wet as full throttle could be applied half way around with very little slip,however on the exit as soon as car was straight it tended to suddenly apply full power again which would break traction again. Aryliam fitted racelogic to a vx turbo engined caterham i drove a couple of years ago which had 255bhp/250 lb ft torque which made it a better car to drive when pressing on hard as it tended to tame the torque output. I/m fitting the dta sys to my race car as i feel the ignition based cutout is a better solution to fuel cut. cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted April 5, 2001 Share Posted April 5, 2001 I find this whole thread scary! You're asking for trouble using one of these systems, especially in the wet. As a computer professional I trust your average ECU/PC/Chip/Sensor about as far as I can throw it. Just develop more sensitivity and self-control. It's free. And what happens when you DO need power (perhaps an overtaking emergency), and the ECU overrides you. No way San Jose. smile.gif Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted April 5, 2001 Share Posted April 5, 2001 Also GIGO - garbage in, garbage out. Calibrating will be crucial. But then conditions change, tyre grip, changes of tyres, road surfaces, oil, diesel. Does the ECU have a universal programme and algorythms quicker than the human brain to cover all eventualities? Andy Edited by - Number Six on 6 Apr 2001 04:42:45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted April 6, 2001 Share Posted April 6, 2001 Andy, "You're asking for trouble using one of these systems, especially in the wet." Actually the reverse applies. I do believe the system can compensate for loss of traction in a fraction of the time a humnan can. It can actually be set up so it detects the slide before you feel it. A matter of preference. Suggest you try before making quite such a sweeping statement. Arnie Webb The Fat Bloke blush.gif in a not so Slow Vauxhall wink.gif See the R500 eater here See the Le Mans Trip Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted April 6, 2001 Share Posted April 6, 2001 "It can actually be set up so it detects the slide before you feel it." Just my 2p's worth so each to his own... As I said calibrating/set-up, call it what you will is crucial. I still don't buy it in a lightweight rocket like a 7, neither do I buy ABS brakes, brake servos, power steering and the like. I really don't see the point in limiting power - I say again, what happens if you are overtaking in the wet and suddenly realise that you can neither brake in time to get "back in" or have insufficient power to clear the hazard? What's the point on spending all your money on a super fast engine then limiting it, and with a computer at that? I know how reliable most computers can be, just look at the tech threads on ECU problems. Feel is everything so why allow a computer to "feel" for you? I suppose I'm a luddite!smile.gif "however on the exit as soon as car was straight it tended to suddenly apply full power again which would break traction again." Quite. PS Have driven other cars with traction control and preferred my own soggy reflexes to that of a sliver of silicon! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted April 6, 2001 Share Posted April 6, 2001 Andy - in any car with an ECU you're *always* relying on the electronics performing to give you the ability to overtake or even get moving in the first place, irrespective of whether it's got traction control. As for "And what happens when you DO need power (perhaps an overtaking emergency), and the ECU overrides you." - eerrrmmmmm, massive wheelspin doesn't help you to overtake... Cutting a bit of fuel or sparks is relatively simple compared to the rest of the ECUs work, so if you've got techno-fear then stick to good old carbs dizzy & points smile.gif Mike (no traction control) Edited by - Mike Bees on 6 Apr 2001 08:52:13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted April 6, 2001 Share Posted April 6, 2001 "Andy - in any car with an ECU you're *always* relying on the electronics performing to give you the ability to overtake or even get moving in the first place, irrespective of whether it's got traction control." Very true - what you are doing here is adding another "layer" - more to go wrong. Sensors for example? Has it been calibrated correctly for the prevailing conditions? What if the system doesn't kick-in when you've floored the throttle? Oops... "As for "And what happens when you DO need power (perhaps an overtaking emergency), and the ECU overrides you." - eerrrmmmmm, massive wheelspin doesn't help you to overtake..." Talk about stating the obvious ... I would rather "progressively" [not floor it!] apply the throttle according to how I perceived the conditions than allow an ECU to "limit" me. We're talking about an emergency here, so in talking about controlled risk on another thread, TC takes control away from ***me***... if you are ultra quick switch TC off I suppose... No techno-fear here, Weber Alpha is a fine set-up ... more like techno-awareness of Murphy's law ... "It should be remembered that it is not the car that induces wheel spin or tail slides, but in fact the driver failing to compensate for changing conditions or simply not having the appropriate level of skill to drive the car within a safe envelope. As a result, it is often the driver who is the weak link in the car and not the other way around. If you have ever had a good racing driver take your own car round a track, it can seem that the car has gained better brakes, handling and more power. The car hasn't changed but the "nut" behind the wheel has. In reality, the driver is just making more of the car's potential. So it is a good thing to avoid wheel spin? Well... yes and no. The problem is that wheel slip is not all bad and the maximum coefficient of friction occurs when the tyre starts to just starts to slip. This occurs with a slip factor of about 10% in the dry and about 5% in the wet. The difficulty is that this is a very fine line. If too much wheel spin occurs the levels of grip that are offered are dramatically reduced and the car will either stay, still spinning its wheels, or more usually, start a tail slide which if not corrected will cause the car to start spinning and skid. Too little or no wheel spin may be cautious but is not exploiting all the level of grip that is available. To drive the car quickly requires treading this fine line. This means that the driver has to be able to detect when too much slip is happening and then reduce the power to correct it. The question is recognising the onset and working out how much correction to apply. Very often the difference between fast and slower drivers is the level of experience in judging where the safe envelope exists. Get it wrong and the slippage can become a full blown tail slide. The need for a faster response is another problem. The human nervous system can take several tenths of a second to detect a change in the car's motion and apply some form of correction. In practice this means that most drivers drive within a lower envelope so that there is a greater level of safety. For experienced rally drivers, the margin is small and they can typically achieve 90% of the maximum traction. They usually have very fast reactions. Less experienced drivers will achieve between 60-70% of the maximum traction. The real issue for drivers is that the envelope will also change depending on road conditions and even other factors such as temperature, tyre tread depth and so on. The other difficulty faced by TVR drivers is that the levels of grip and performance offered by these cars is so high that when it does start to go wrong, the speeds involved are a lot higher and require faster responses. As a driver moves towards the edge of the envelope, the room for error becomes less and less and any change in the external conditions can take the car outside of the envelope and into trouble. This is why so many accidents occur in the wet and on ice when drivers fail to adapt to the greatly reduced road grip. There are several solutions to this: the first is to learn how to drive the car and detect the onset of wheel slippage so that correction can be applied. This process requires practice and involves recognising the sensory feedback that is the first sign that the car is approaching the limit. The phrase "driving through the seat of your pants" is a very apt description. The second approach is to fit a traction control system where a microprocessor does some of the thinking for you." Horses for courses. By the way the guy quoted above likes TC as it gives an experienced driver allegedly a larger safety envelope to play with. I don't buy that one either - it just means he'll be going that much quicker when he hits the tree backwards! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Abbott Posted April 6, 2001 Author Share Posted April 6, 2001 It's interesting to see the debate that this has kicked off. A couple of points to my initial 'question'. Firstly, I'm running a 2 ltr Zetec with mapped ignition and twin 40's, so am therefore limited in my choice of systems (Racelogic appears to be the only one!). Whilst I absolutely agree with all the 'pure' sentiments (no servos, PAS, ABS etc..) and whilst I have no issues with drifting the car and controlling the handling whilst spinning the rears up - I just know that I'll be able to drive my car faster off the line with traction control. This is my aim. Nigel Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted April 6, 2001 Share Posted April 6, 2001 Nigel - this is what you are probably looking for Launch Control is activated by pressing a green button on the dashboard when the car is stationary. This will bring in a secondary rev-limit (for example 4000 rpm). The throttle can be fully depressed without over-revving the engine. The car is put into gear, the throttle floored, and then the clutch is engaged swiftly, whilst the launch control system controlling the wheelspin and revs for the perfect start. As the blurb for TC says... Acceleration out of junctions becomes rapid and repeatable, just bury the throttle and the system does the rest, constantly adjusting the power of the engine every thousandth of a second, searching for maximum grip. In a rear wheel drive car you can use full throttle around a corner with full confidence that the rear end isn't going to suddenly break away. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FH Posted April 6, 2001 Share Posted April 6, 2001 Nigel - Which 'line' are you talking about driving faster from question.gif The 1% trackday line or the 99% road-use lines question.gif BTW Trackdays are trackdays, not races, so they don't have start 'lines' If you're intending standing starts from lines on the public highway, I hope I'm in another county. And I shall use even more caution on roundabouts If I offend anyone by this posting, I apologise in advance - it just strikes me that this approach to driving se7ens is irresponsible and will give us all a bad reputation. FH No Smile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arnold Posted April 6, 2001 Share Posted April 6, 2001 Andy states: 'the maximum coefficient of friction occurs when the tyre starts to just starts to slip. This occurs with a slip factor of about 10% in the dry and about 5% in the wet. ' Is this right? I always thought that the coeff starts to decline immeadiately slip occurs. Personally I think wheel spin is fun... James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted April 6, 2001 Share Posted April 6, 2001 As I understand it, the new Emerald ECU has launch control features included. Worth checking out. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel Johnson Posted April 6, 2001 Share Posted April 6, 2001 Having a little iside knowledge of Mr Abbotts driving and the fact that his 7 has not even been back from the factory a week yet after its last little excursion into a ditch I would fully recommend anything that helps him stay on the road and out of future ditches !!!!!!!!! However being of the same mentality I can't say less power just perhaps a full on fly by wire system so that he has all of the control taken away .......Maybe a roller coaster would be the answer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FH Posted April 6, 2001 Share Posted April 6, 2001 "Ditches" - "Trees" question.gif To borrow an oft-used expression....... I rest my briefcase FH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted April 6, 2001 Share Posted April 6, 2001 James "the maximum coefficient of friction occurs when the tyre starts to just starts to slip. This occurs with a slip factor of about 10% in the dry and about 5% in the wet." That came from a guy that fitted TC to his TVR - not sure if it's 100% right. Sounds reasonable though. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Abbott Posted April 6, 2001 Author Share Posted April 6, 2001 Melv, P/haps you should modify that bracket you're making for me and turn them into a pair of stabalisers (cheeky git!). As to Mr Fullharness - please don't get the wrong idea about my 7ing escapades, I'm absolutely as law abiding as the next Caterham owner! Nigel Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel Johnson Posted April 6, 2001 Share Posted April 6, 2001 Seeing as I'll end up making all the mounting brackets then can someone please recommend this man an easy to fit bolt on kit, and how about big magnets underneath like the scalectrix cars use!!!!!! Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elie boone Posted April 6, 2001 Share Posted April 6, 2001 Why do we like or Sevens ? because they offer pure sensations and trills, so why you cut the wings of your Seven by adding T C or any other system, let her free and you will enjoy her fully,and drive more concentrated. Guys ho never nown enything else than ABS or TC will not have the same reactions and senses than sombody ho is used to a car witch slide now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ince Posted April 6, 2001 Share Posted April 6, 2001 Traction control would take the fun out of driving my R500. Part of the fun is knowing when to put the power down and by how much. If you want all the electronics buy an Evo IV! I have DSC on my M5, which allows flat to the floor throttle on snow and roundabouts! This takes the enjoyment out of driving. Together with the ABS it is very good and on a very wet country road would be as quick as the R500 but much safer! Caterham did think about offering launch control on the R500 but unlike the powerful Vauxhall based cars (or drivers) that apparently require traction control R500's do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted April 7, 2001 Share Posted April 7, 2001 About six years ago I went to Racelogic with a (fat)German friend who had a chipped Volvo 850 T5 with about 265 bhp. The car was an auto and very fast for an estate. The German guy was interested in launch control. At Racelogic we were looked after by Dave Clarke, who later on became a Caterham racer. He took us out in a Cosworth Sierra that had their traction control. It was very impressive. There was a potentiometer on the dash that could vary the amount the back end would step out. We went round and round an empty roundabout twiddling the pot with the back end sticking out at different angles. The launch control was equally impressive. The Volvo with it's OE traction control would spin the wheels leaving big long darkies on the road. The Sierra would have the gas flat to the floor with the engine stuttering as the electronics would cut the fuel at random. As you let out the clutch the tyres would give a little yelp and the car would just shoot off. They were also doing interesting work with paddle shifts for auto boxes. This was quite a few years ago, things must have moved on quite a bit by now. If I had the money I would definately like to have a play with it. I joked later on with the fat German that instead of getting "Launch control" he should be doing something about "Lunch control" first. As for the people who are anti electronic gizmos, that's fine. This forum is to exchange views on technical subjects. Let's just agree to disagree. We don't want to get in a "I'm right and you're wrong" scenario. Plus, if you were right I would agree with you. Go for it Nigel. AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted April 7, 2001 Share Posted April 7, 2001 Actually Ammo I wrote a load of rubbish I'm just trying to wind Arnie up!!!teeth.gif Just kidding Arnie. That's the beauty of 7's, each one truly is unique and everyone has their unique viewpoint. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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