bl0498 Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Hi, As I am sure some of you are aware the 2004 MSA Blue Book L.10.1.3 has amended the requirements for head restraints for hillclimbs and sprints. To quote 'Head restraints are (Q.13) Mandatory for all cars except cars of periods A-E (Section P)' Section P defines the excluded cars as cars built before 1962. Q.13 defines the technical standards for the Head restraint as: (quote) 'Head restraints when required to be fitted, must be capable of restraining a 17kgmass decelerating at 5g. Dimensions to be 10cm x 10cm and located such that the drivers/passengers head/helmet is restrained and cannot move past it under rearward forces, or be trapped between the rollbar and the head restraint. It is recommended that it be within 5cm of the drivers/passengers helmet when they are normally seated'. All competing cars at L7CGB sprints etc will have to meet these regulations. I have approached Caterham and they have supplied the following information: 'Tillet seats should be used in conjunction with the relevant head restraint bracket/kitfitted up to the back of the head rest portion of the seat'. Caterham clearly do not think that standard Tillet seats on their own meet the regs. '1996 onwards leather and cloth standard seats with the built in (adjustable) head restraint have a European approval which requires a head restraint impact test These seats passed to a higher load case than required by Q.13 and the structure within the headrest is larger than the Q.13 size'. The only slight caution I have with this is whether the head is pushed slightly forward when helmeted - but this will clearly vary with individual and helmet. Obviously all cars with older standard seats and those with 2 pack foam moulded seats will have to be fitted with a head restraint which satisfies Q.13. A piece of aluminium honeycomb board, suitably padded is what is apparently generally used by teams in Caterham race championships. Various headrest kits etc are available from Caterham (sales pitch!): 77846 Head rest assembly - VX Race £12 77846s Steady Bracket - VX Race £11 77847 Headrest Assembly - FIA Roll Cage £11 77847s Steady Bracket - FIA Roll Cage £11 77849 Head Restraint Assembly - FIA Roll Bar £11.40 77849s Steady Bracket - FIA Roll Bar £11.40 79045 Head Assembly 2003> - FIA Roll Bar and Cage S3 only £20 Contact parts/aftersales for further info on these parts. Caterham do not do a pad for the head restraint. Demon Tweeks etc will sell suitable foam bearing in mind that it should be high density/stiff foam similar to the purpose designed roll bar padding on the market. I hope the above is useful. If anyone has any further questions I will be happy to help. Best Regards, Brian Trainee Clerk of the Course Edited by - bl0498 on 14 Jan 2004 15:25:34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Perry Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Stupid question time, The word 'passenger' appears more than once in Q13. Are we expected to have a similar restraint on the passenger side as well, even though we won't be using it ? Currently my car does not have head restraints on either seat. There I said it was a stupid question 😳 I am just about to start cutting metal with mine, so it would be nice to know what the rule is. Edited by - Graham Perry on 9 Jan 2004 17:55:47 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan L Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Can someone clarify whether a steady bracket is required with the headrest assembly if fitting to a standard FIA ROLLBAR. It's just Brian's original post would indicate just the headrest assembly but when I phoned to order I was told I would also need a steady bracket. (This was not Caterham Parts but another parts supplier) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 If you use the caterham head restraint then you will need a steady bar , the steady bar prevents the headrest from rotating left to right on the rollbar . Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bl0498 Posted January 10, 2004 Author Share Posted January 10, 2004 Guys, To answer the various points raised: Q.13 applies to all types of events covered by the MSA Blue Book, including rallying etc where there is a navigator. Hence the reference to passengers. No - you don't need one on the passenger side for our events. As Dave has mentioned you will need the steady bar. For some of the cages I have shown two part numbers - Caterham only supplied one part no. for the FIA rollbar. If this is incorrect please let me know and I will amend the post. Best Regards, Brian Trainee Clerk of the Course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan L Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Went to Autosport today and saw a head restraint fitted to the restraint and steady bar and happy that what ordered is correct. When the parts arrive hopefully early in the week I'll check the part numbers and post anything that is relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve C Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Has anyone got any photos or diagrams of what these look like? I hate all these add on bits, they really don't help to avoid the kit car look when all I'm planning are a few hillclimbs and sprints in the year. Playing the Lo-tech Hi-spec Weber music! 'Go on do that thing when your carbs catch fire' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrigsby Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 Based on the above I guess given that I have the original 1992 pre-S tyep Leather type seats I will need to fit a head restraint this year? Rob G www.SpeedySeven.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bl0498 Posted January 12, 2004 Author Share Posted January 12, 2004 Rob, You must have a headrest which meets Q13 this year. I cannot recall if the pre 96 seats had a headrest or not. Even if they did I would guess that Caterham did not get Type Approval for them... I have seen earlier headrests which are an open type with no centre piece - I guess these will not pass Q.13, If you supply me with some details I will ask Caterham. Brian Trainee Clerk of the Course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david nelson Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 I have just got my head restrain from CC you do need a 77849 Head Restraint Assembly - FIA Roll Bar £11.40 and 77848s Steady Bracket- FIA Roll Bar £11.40 David Edited by - David Nelson on 20 Jan 2004 17:03:03 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bl0498 Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 Thanks for the update David. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan L Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 As per Steve C's post anyone got any pictures or tips on the best way fit the head restraint & steady bar. It looks straight forward enough but don't want to rush a fitting only to find on the first event I fail scruttineering. The actual bracket is telescopic with the 10x10 piece having a couple of holes in it. I assume you line up where you need the restraint to be, mark the location of the holes in the mounted piece and drill a hole to take the threaded bit of the steady bar. Tighten evety thing up and bingo. Edited by - Alan L on 14 Jan 2004 19:24:21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bl0498 Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 Alan, I haven't got any pictures - but your analysis of how to do it is correct. The tricky bit is you need someone to help you check the positioning when you are sat in the car with your helmet on before you start drilling etc. Position in this sense is both front/back but also height (and you need the restraint centred)- and as the headrestraint u bolt mounts on the rearward bar changing one changes the other. Given that the steady bar needs to be perpendicular to the head restraint fitting you will probably find (I recall I did) that neither of the two pre-drilled holes are in the correct place for the threaded steady bar to go through when it is mounted on the offide FIA bar upright - hence you need to drill through both metal pieces of the main bar. Hope this helps. Brian Trainee Clerk of the Course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bl0498 Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 Alan, Forgot to mention - don'r forget to allow for any padding you are planning to have on the plate when you align it all up. Although compressable it will have a minimum thickness. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrigsby Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Brian, Thanks for all the help so far, I was just wondering if you could take a quick look at this picture. That's the current seats that I have with the headrestraints in place. As you say it seems unlikely they are approved but if you get a chance any comments would be great. Cheers Rob G www.SpeedySeven.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_r Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Just checked my car over, I noticed that with the tillets in the furthest back position, as they always are for me, there is very little clearance between the seat back (headrest) and the FIA bar diagonal - if the diagonal was padded with the usual roll bar padding, then the seat back would be in contact with the padding - question is, would that then satisfy the new rules? Bob Blatting around Bucks in an R400 - at least I will be when the weather improves ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Williams Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Anyone have a picture of the Caterham offering in place? Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bl0498 Posted January 27, 2004 Author Share Posted January 27, 2004 Rob G, Below is the statement from Caterham when I queried the earlier, pre '96 seats: 'We can't guarantee the strength of the pre '96 seats. Although we believe the Oxted pre '96 seat (with twin head rest posts) does have a suitably strong head restraint, we can't back this up with any official seat tests (as is the case with the post '96). The Restall pre '96 seat with the single head rest post is an unknown in terms of it was never tested and we are unsure of the support structure in the seat back. We would recommend upgrading the seat or using a headrest bracket as additional or replacement head support.' Bob r/Adrian, Your query on the tillets and whether roll bar padding would suffice behibd the tillet headrest elicited the following response: 'Thinking about the tillet seat to rollbar issue - from my reading of Q13 this is fine in terms of area as the seat it's self counts as the 10x10 area, and as long as the structure behind provides the level of load carrying stated in Q13 then this is fine. Two things concern me about this arrangement: 1) The diagonal of the FIA bar does not necessarily pass directly behind the point where the driver's head would hit. 2) The material filling the gap would be open to scrutineer interpretation. Domestic foam pipe lagging would not be suitable in my opinion. I would honestly always recommend people use the correct support bracket as it allows adjustment to correspond exactly with the back of the driver's helmet. The head restraint bracket is compulsory where a tillet seat is used in our Academy series and I believe it is the case in all championships this year.' Hope this helps. I intend to talk to a couple of scrutineers for their general opinions too. Brian Trainee Clerk of the Course Edited by - bl0498 on 27 Jan 2004 16:27:00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Williams Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 Thanks for your response Brian, as I said in my e-mail I think it puts the scrutineer in a very awkward position. I totally agree that padding the roll bar diagonal (with the correct type of padding) would only be satisfactory if it was directly behind the drivers head and that the Tillett headrest is pressing on the padding. However if this is the case then this arrangement appears to be just as safe if not safer than the Caterham product. We've got plenty of time before Lyden and it will be interesting to see what other scrutineers say to you. Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bl0498 Posted February 19, 2004 Author Share Posted February 19, 2004 Just for Woolly! Brian Trainee Clerk of the Course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 sorry to bring this up as I am still a little with regard padding and the tillet seat Is it ok to have no padding if the head restraint/bracket is actually touching the back of the tillet seat 🤔 even if this woould satisfy the scrutineer is thtis advisable 🤔 would it damage the seat 🤔 thoughts, answers on a postcard etc etc rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bl0498 Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 Rob, My own view is that it would be OK scrutineering wise for you to not have padding between the seat and the head restraint. However I think in practise you would find that if you stopped abruptly and your head went backwards on the tillet that the part immediately in front of the head restraint bracket would have no movement but the areas around would move backwards a little - and you would crack the tillet. Also when using on the road without a helmet you might appreciate a little free movement that is damped but not abrupt. Hope this helps. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Durrant Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Rob FWIW I intend to have a piece of foam between the headrest and tillet in order to protect the seat. I shall be fitting and removing the support before/after each event as the tonneau will not fit with it in place. Mark D Su77on Se7ens Making plans for the 2004 Sprint Season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 cheers anyone havee the DT order code for the correct typee of foam to fit on the headrest, am assuming it is not the same as the roll bar padding.... rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Well Caterham have my new tall roll bar in stock. Going to have it painted Caterham yellow. So I have spent 3 hours in the garage tonight sorting out the old Petty bar (5 minutes) and the head restraint that I have never fitted in the last 5 years. Well Petty bars there but not the dam head restraint. It was sitting on the bench last September. I am intending to have the whole lot painted and leaving the restraint permanently in place, padded. That way I will not keep scratching the new paintwork. So looks like I need to buy another one what's the betting as soon as I do the old one turns up. Also as there will have been a rush to buy them bet its out of stock ☹️ So sometime your all going to see one on sale 'Can you hear me running' ......... OH YES and its music to my ears 😬 😬 😬 1988 200 bhp, 146 ft lbs, 1700cc Cosworth BD? engineered by Roger King, on Weber's with Brooklands and Clamshell wings, Freestyle Motorsport suspension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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