Gridgway Posted April 1, 2001 Share Posted April 1, 2001 anyone know how to start an R500 when you have ahem, stalled it (it just cranks and cranks with no sign of life - if it was carbs I would try with WOT, but that doesn't seem to help)? Leaving it for an hour works. Tks Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 The MBE ECU's are very voltage sensitive. Below 12V on the supply and the ignition thyristors wont fire. The starter motor (expecially on high compression engines) pulls the battery voltage down considerably. If the loom does not take ECU supply direct from the battery (instead of a busbar in the loom) this could be a big prob. When you stall an injected car they always seem to be reluctant to fire immediately - mine always wants to crank for about 20 turns before it fires up. Perhaps the R500 map minimises advance as well - this does not help hot starting. The R500 does use an MBE 967 ECU. Leaving the car for an hour gives the battery a chance to recover, and also gives you the cool start advance parms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 Graham, sounds like that battery you sold me is whats needed. It wallops my 2.0L over a treat. Seriously. It could be low voltage. The mapping on my car won't play if the batt is low (the old battery of course). I guess the compression ratio on the R500 is pretty high which might not help. There isn't much you can do with these 'all mangaged systems' is there? No throttle and crank. The rest is done by the electronics. Does it burst into life with a jump start? That would tell you it was the voltage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 Graham I suffered this for a while (not an R500 but a K with 11.1:1 cr) but it's much improved now. Question - is the car hot when you've stalled it (e.g. 85degC+, definitely >90degC??). First thing we tried was to upgrade the battery but it didn't really help. I fitted a Red Top 700 which had twice the cranking power of the original battery but no luck. Fortunately this a lovely bit of kit anyway so I wasn't too upset at buying it! What did fix it was to take the starter motor off and "rebuild" it (some of the wires were loose which only looked to be a problem when it was hot). As yours is new I wouldn't have thought this would be it, but you never know. So I'd be inclined to double check all electrical connections first. Also, I believe the R500s are meant to come with a geared starter motor? Do you have the right spec one? Maybe check out the r500owners site as I believe they have a list of common issues (such as they are)? C7 AJM PS One other possible is "kick back" if the map isn't set right (ignition advance at idle I think), but as it's an R500 I would seriously doubt that this is the root cause... Edited by - Andy Murphy on 2 Apr 2001 13:17:22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 Most ECUs have a 'cranking advance' setting. On a high CR engine this needs to be a low number (a few degrees) to prevent 'kick-back' - when it occurs it tends to stop the starter motor dead in it's tracks momentarily. It could be that it's just too rich for a hot start and is wetting the plugs, this would be easy to check for (take a plug out and have a look) - maybe the coolant temp sensor isn't playing the game (the one the ECU uses, not the one the gauge uses - hmm, except that you've got a Stack dash not a gauge, dunno if it still uses a separate sensor or whether it shares with the ECU). Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartG Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 Don't you get free RAC membership when you purchase an R500? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 I'm fairly certain my Stack dash uses a separate sensor to the ECU. The only thing that made me note the map is that I think Graham had some map jiggery pokery done to get him through the SVA. So I suppose it's possible something wasn't reset right. But you'd expect this to spot on for "factory designed" cars. The point noted about waiting an hour or so makes me think that the temperature is causing grief here (as mine did the same). A look at the starter motor and all it's connections would be a good (cheap wink.gif) place to start. Of course if it only truly happens when you stall it (i.e. turning it off normally when hot sees it firing up instantly straight after) I have no idea what might be wrong! I'm fairly certain the MBE doesn't run MS Windows, but if this is what's happening it sounds like an odd computer glitch. Incidentally, mine's not 100% cured still! I suspect the final bit of tweaking needed is to the map which I'm aiming to get done v.soon. But hot starting hasn't caused me enough grief recently (asking for trouble) to make me push it up the list of "todos". By the way, I couldn't find a cranking advance setting in the MBE software. Doesn't mean it's not there, probably more likely that I'm just hopeless at looking for it... C7 AJM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gridgway Posted April 2, 2001 Author Share Posted April 2, 2001 well caterham seem to think that the 9.2v my Hawker battery produces during cranking is not enough for reliable starting. SO I wil lbe testing with anopther battery (probably using jump leads) to see what happens. I'm not that convinced, but I guess I need to eliminate it. I hope it's not the batt as I spent ages lovingly fitting my custom battery box! Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted April 3, 2001 Share Posted April 3, 2001 Graham, 9.2v is definately not enough. Anything below 11.5v when cranking is dubious. I've used MBE and designed all the looms and electornics on my car specific to my car since 1994 - trust me! Arnie Webb The Fat Bloke blush.gif in a not so Slow Vauxhall wink.gif See the R500 eater here See the Le Mans Trip Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted April 3, 2001 Share Posted April 3, 2001 What batteries are Caterham fitting to the R500 as standard? I'd be very surprised if the Hawker gave less juice than the usual Caterham batteries... C7 AJM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted April 3, 2001 Share Posted April 3, 2001 I would normally walk out and look to answer the above question. But James W has my car at the mo'. It's black and has some quippy name but not Torque starter. I actually have the batt that Graham got with his R500. So I feel a bit responsible. It's doing a great job in my HPC. I also sent him the web link for the Hawker batts.... Graham could of course have a faulty Hawker batt in the equation?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted April 3, 2001 Share Posted April 3, 2001 Either he has a faulty battery or some duff connections (or the Stack is reporting the wrong voltage...). Only a sick or almost-flat battery would go as low as 9.2v, although I've never come across a battery that never dips below 11.5v whilst cranking. Even the new (big) battery on my tin-top goes down to around 10.5 whilst cranking a cold engine (and will be lower still on an icy morning). Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted April 3, 2001 Share Posted April 3, 2001 Hmmm. Mine has reported as low as 7.4V very briefly whilst cranking (and the battery should be A1). I wonder wether the Stack is reporting the voltage correctly (when on a run it reads anywhere between 13.5V and 14.1V)? C7 AJM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gridgway Posted April 3, 2001 Author Share Posted April 3, 2001 so here's where we are...Martin Hill at Race Technology has tested ano Hawker battery and it produces 9.2v at 300 amps. Everyone agrees that it isn't enough to power the electronic gismos in an MBE managed (or any other for that matter) engine. So we'll go back to the standard caterham banner fitment to see what happens...watch this space. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ranson Posted April 3, 2001 Share Posted April 3, 2001 I think it is safe to say that you either have a faulty battery, faulty wiring, or MBE ECUs are crap. Otherwise no car would ever start.... Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHRIS CLARK Posted April 3, 2001 Share Posted April 3, 2001 Graham, I can guess why you sold on the original (new) battery; probably for a lighter weight one, but look at the hassle! The old adage of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" seems appropriate here!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 Chris - you evidently don't work in IT then? And where's the fun in that? And aren't you the one just going through a "fixing" session on your engine? smile.gif It'll be interesting to see what Graham finds... C7 AJM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 Andy - I guess a brief low reading wouldn't be too surprising if the starter motor stalled. Also it will depend to some extent on where in the loom the Stack is measuring the voltage. If the starter is drawing 300 amps via the master switch then there is quite a long cable run which will probably result in some extra voltage drop. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gridgway Posted April 4, 2001 Author Share Posted April 4, 2001 I measured the 9.2 with a digi voltmeter direct to the battery. It would seem that these batteries are only really meant for running, not for starting. The received wisdom is that they would normally be boosted for starting. So it looks like the "low" cranking voltage is designed in in some way. We'll see what happens to the starting properties with the fitment of a standard banner battery. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ranson Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 DMS sell a 'grid start' case designed to hold a Red Top 30 with a convenient handle to use as an auxiliary starting battery. Which is an indication (along with the rhetoric about them being 'originally used to start fighter aircraft engines') that the usage you intended is not unreasonable. I think you have other problems or a faulty battery. FWIW I've used a relatively venerable '30' to start and run my Pilbeam many times in a day without recharging. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 I've just noticed I obviously never read your original post properly! If it cranks and cranks then it's not much like mine at all, which wouldn't turn the engine over at all when hot! So ignore everything I posted!! Will be interesting to see if the std. Caterham battery fixes the problem...I'm sure there must be a Red Top that gives similar performance but with lighter weight (if the problem is cured). C7 AJM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 How old is your starter motor Andy (is it the original one with my fingerprints on it?). I've just got an exchange one from the Lucas place in Cambridge for 44ukp inc vat - compared to the old tired one it spins the engine over with a tremendous amount of vigour, even with my little 16Ah Red Top 25 battery (a much smaller brother of Graham's battery - same technology, just smaller and with a different badge). I'd got to the point of thinking that the battery wasn't up to the job at all - it would turn with some vigour for about 2 or 3 engine revolutions, then grind slowly to a halt. Changing the starter has cured it completely, and for about 1/5th of the price of one of the fancy geared ones which I so-nearly bought. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 I'm pretty certain it's the same one. Changing it was to be the next attempt, but when the guys at Ratrace took it off they noticed "some wires loose". Fixing it all back up cured most of the problems. A geared starter was suggested by a couple of independant sources but 250GBP or so (as you say) is a bit hefty. I may well follow your suggestion now. Is the Lucas starter a heavy item a la the starters for Vauxhalls? I was wondering if there were altrenatives as Arnie seems to have found for his Vx... Then again, maybe I should listen to Chris' "if it ain't broke" and get something we know works... C7 AJM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 I haven't weighed it. It's a direct pattern-fit for the Caterham supplied Magnetti Marelli unit (which is from a Sierra I believe), with the exception that the solenoid trigger connection uses a post rather than a Lucar connector. It's not a Lucas-made part, they deal in every size/shape/form of electrical components these days. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 Graham I've got one of Martins Batteries, but when I went to fit it I found it was heaver than the standard Banner so I didn't fit it, however at Cadwell one of the R500 with a very flat battery started with jump leads from it. So it should be OK, do you want to try mine in case yours is faulty? Let me know and I’ll ship it to you. Jason R500FUN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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