Sandy Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 I am considering buying a Zetec powered Classic for my first 7. The engine is currently unmodified and I would expect to want to carry out an upgrade to 160bhp after a year or so. I expect to use the car for blatting/ fun/ rallies and tours with the odd track day thrown in. I doubt I will compete in sprints or on the track It is built using a Live Axle and it has been suggested that a De Dion would be preferable? Can anyone advise if it would be unwise to upgrade Zetec of this Live or would this not really be a problem due my expected use (ie non competition) Also, does anyone think I might struggle on a resale (particularily with a 160bhp upgrade) Any tips and advice would be much appreciated Looking 41st7! Edited by - Sandy on 22 Dec 2003 11:34:05 Edited by - Sandy on 22 Dec 2003 11:47:27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casbar Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Can't advise on the Zetec front, but I have a 170bhp xflow and its in a live axle car. The issue with the axle is not bhp but how much torque the engine has. I believe the live axle is good upto aroune 190bhp, there will be someone along shortly to tell you how good the de-dion is, but in my oppion the live axle is fine. If you put rose jointed shocks on the rears it vastly improves the ride as well. Oh and its lighter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Sandy, Is it a 1.8 or 2L? In standard form with DCOEs, the 1.8 should produce around 155 Bhp and the 2L around 165 Bhp so you won't be far off the 160 you say you want to upgrade to anyway. The Ital axle is just about ok for a Zetec in standard trim but any more and you will definitely want to change. The upgrade to a Ford axle is very easy to carry out and it will be capable of taking much more torque than the Ital. If you are looking at all the options to start with then I would say the DeDion is the way to go but if you manage to get a good deal on a live axle car then they really aren't that bad. A live axle will always be worth less than a DD but nevertheless it is still possible to sell and will of course be cheaper to buy in the first place. You pays your money............. Brent Zetec 209 Edited by - BRENT CHISWICK on 22 Dec 2003 11:56:20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Posted December 22, 2003 Author Share Posted December 22, 2003 Sorry, I made a mistake, the Zetec is a 2 litre which I would hope to upgrade from its current 160 to 190bhp. If the live axle is likely to struggle what sort of costs would be involved in replacing it in the future (I wouldnt be able to carry this out myself) The 7 I found on Blat Chat (posted 7 Dec) so any feedback on VFM would be appreciated Thanks again Looking 41st7! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puremalt Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Buy a de dion, you won't be able to change a live axle to de dion as the chassis is different (I believe). This is after reading the rebuild story in LF a few months back of the chap who wanted to do this after a prang. Arch said 'NO' immediately when asked. They may be heavier, but the ride is better. Excellent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Posted December 22, 2003 Author Share Posted December 22, 2003 If the Live Axle (ital) cannot be replaced in favour of a De Dion what could it be replaced with that would accom a possible 190bhp? Looking 41st7! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Septimus Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Who cares about the ride. Keep it light and keep it simple - the true spirit of the 7, unless of course you go for full IRS with a Climax Elite Diff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonycaterham Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Sandy, I have a 190bhp live axle 7 but like Brent's I replaced the Ital axle with a ford one. I love my car and given that it spends most of its time doing sprints and trackdays, then the live axle is no disadvantage (possibly is even an advantage but that's another debate) but given yours is going to be most road use then go for the de-dion as the car will be less fidgety on the road. IMHO I think a live axled 7 especially with 160bhp plus requires more expertise/bottle than a de-dion equivalent - stands back for a flaming!! 😬 TONY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casbar Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 As I said earlier, if you use decent rose jointed rear shocks, I defy most people to be able to tell the difference between a live axle and de-dion I can't a good setup live axle is as good as a de-dion and doesn't scare the cr*p out of you when and if the back end goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwyatt Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 What about fitting a Quaiffe axle kit in the live axle (and an ATB diff while you are at it) ? Does that make it able to comfortably handle more power/torque? Edited by - jwyatt on 23 Dec 2003 10:59:14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonycaterham Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Casbar, I have yet to try rose jointed shocks on my live axle does it make a significant difference? Whose do you use/suggest? Regards Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheds Moderator Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 If you are buying a first seven then for road use you will find 160bhp more than enough. Mine is 130bhp and is in any terms a fast car. You just can't put down more power on the road in safety for more than a second or two. Significantly over 150bhp in a 7 is really usable on tracks only, or for massaging your ego. (Steps back for flaming). Yes, I've been out in 200bhp+ 7s, great cars but not the step change from a 130bhp car you might expect, not in the real world of damp tarmac, doddery Ford Escorts, suicidal bikers and cynically placed cameras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elie boone Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 I would go for the Live axle because they are 2 to 3 grand cheaper than a DD, the road holding / comfort depends on the sort of springs that are used but any first Seven with 160bhp can be quit a handfull unless u are a natural. And if you dicide to go for a Ford Live axle with lsd & quaife Grp 4 half shaft kit they are virtually bullet proof and cost less than 2 grand. At least if you go for the live axle do not forget to overfill with 0.5ltr or baffle the axle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwyatt Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Hijacking this for a moment (sorry!) I now have a hayabusa Fisher Fury with english live axle, does anyone who knows about these things have any opinions as to what that their axle installation is like (seems to have some rose joints/trailing arms etc and be very different to the Caterham one). Also does anyone have recomended spring rates? Feels v stiff right now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mille-schwarzfahrer Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Live-axle?? Great stuff! Go for it! A real seven gotta have it!! Ford axle lighter than Dedion, but a standard one, even without LSD is still on 55 kg!! Has somebody the weight of an Ital?? Is anybody out there, who modified it to a five link set-up? Pics or link available?? Any experience for improvements with rose-joints on trailing arms and/or rear dampers?? Ta, Friedhelm 😬 1969 S3 TC Hillclimb Special Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elie boone Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Mille-Swarzfahrer, Midas Metalcraft modifyed my axle to a 5 link but they are out of bussines aldo you can try to give Doug a call, if you want i can dig up an old Low flying to find his tel. nr You can have a ali. nose for the Ford live axle but its not cheap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delberts Wallet Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Sandy, Have you bought it then? Blue and Carbon 6 Speed Supersport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiff Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 I wrecked my Ital live axle with 155bhp. I believe the damage was done flooring it on bumpy roads where the live axle can't cope. The stresses as the wheel goes on and off the ground are too much. I now have a de-dion car with Watts link and the wheels remain on the ground (mostly) on the same bits of road. The overall handling on bumpy roads is vastly improved with de-dion. If you have 160 - 200bhp and you want a live axle I'd definately get a Ford. But to be safe I'd recommend de-dion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elie boone Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Tiff, What was the spring rate on the live axle & what do yopu have on the DD ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Wardle Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 I wrecked 2 Ital diffs with only 100bhp on my previous 7 (1600 Graduate). Ford axle or DD are the waay forward for the power/torque your are considering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE GILBERT Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 What actually failed in the Diffs please? Steve See My Old Zetec Power 7 Here. Caterham Fireblade update soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiff Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 These questions are bit technical for me ,I'm afraid elie boone - the spring rates I don't know. But if it helps the live axle started life as a 1997 Classic 1.6 X/Flow. The De Dion is on my "standard" 2003 R300. STEVE GILBERT - I can't tell you. Symptoms were whining getting louder and louder, then grinding with occasional horrible crunching noise. After seeing a live axle car at an Elvington track day lose all drive throuh the Diff and have to be trailered home - I had it changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 Thanks for all the advice. I am now in the process of buying the car and will run with the current ital and see how it performs. If I experience any problems can anyone advise on the likely cost to have a Ford axle installed? Looking 41st7! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Smith Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 My 2p worth: It really depends on what you are doing with it. 100bhp Grads cars can and do break halfshalfs. On the road I can't imagine it being a problem with that amount of power. As for the Quaife halfshalfs someone mentioned, Grads racers have broken those too and they are now classified as "not for race use". But do make sure you have the remanufactured halfshalfs (post-2000) rather than the orginal ones, staright from a scrap Ital. Usual stuff - overfill the diff, have the halfshafts shimmed to remove any play (not tack welded), keep an eye for any play... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R2D2 Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 Elie, I used a Quaife conversion on an RS2000 in 2002 and broke 3 half-shafts on tarmac rallies using 185x70x13 Yoko's. I replaced the Quaife units with a conversion I bought from Rally & Competition Equipment which has stood up to more abuse and is a bit cheaper. The price of the conversion is about £1100 + VAT including hubs, shafts, LSD bolts etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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