Mrs Kipper Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Graham I know you're up to your ears in organising the Awards Dinner, but have you had any thoughts on the class structure for next year? Rumour has it that there might be changes and before the winter upgrade programmes are started ( I should be so lucky), it would be good to know what is in store for next year. (Noises off - sound of can being opened and escaping worms) Kipper Fun is not a straight line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Kipper - can of worms truly opened rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver 21 Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Yes There are likely to be some tweaks to the class structure for next year to allow for the changes Caterham have made to their model line up. These are not finalised yet but to completely open the can the initial thoughts are: Class 1: to accept new Academy Cars (115bhp K Series) Class 2: to accept 1.8K Series (140bhp), all 1.6K series cars to run standard injection system as they left the factory (including ECU/Injection System/Plenum,ie: 135bhp) ,single cam engines as now. Class 3: as above except 1b tyres. Class 4: All 1.6K series cars running modified injection systems + all other 1.8K's etc Class 5: as above except 1b tyres Class 6: As currently I am sure this will produce huge debate, but this is based on feedback received from competitors, the original class structure was drawn up approx 5 years ago and things change. After conversations with those that set them up the 'standard plenum' was really meant to restrict these cars to how they left the factory and this is simply no longer the case. Caterham now only produce a 1.8 but in standard form its only got 5bhp more than a 1.6K so its extremely hard for them to compete in Class 4/5. Likewise in Class 2 there are now a number of 1.6K series cars producing well in excess of 135bhp. I'm sure I'm about to receive a lot of flack but hey I'm a big chap 😬 😬 😬 😬 😬 and therfore have broad shoulders Graham Competition Secretary Lydden , Curborough , MIRA , Llandow , Loton Park , Curborough *thumbup*, Aintree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 ☹️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver 21 Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Rob I don't understand your posting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Durrant Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Graham You have my support for the proposed changes and also that of my Bank Manager the only problem will be is that I'll have no excuses, less power etc ,if I'm not competitive 😳. Do you have a date in mind for when any changes will be agreed 🤔 Mark D Su77on Se7ens Avoiding the Kerbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 I am just a bit sad ☹️because 1. I need now to sell my emerald plus other bits (52mm TB) etc that I was planning to stick on the car which would have made me eligible in class 3 this year but not next, and maybe get a bit closer to Dave 2. with the new regs the max for a k series is 135 bhp ish yet we get to compete with 180 bhp all singing xflows 3. also (and I am sure I am reading this wrong) it appears that 1.6K must have standard plenum, ecu etc where as 1.8's do not of course I could still do the upgrade and play in class 5 I suppose... What ever the regs I will still be competing somewhere in the championship, and the above are just my observations not any critisicms directed at anyone. rob PS I think the addition of 1.8s to classes 2&3 is sensible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted September 9, 2003 Area Representative Share Posted September 9, 2003 Graham, With regard to class 2 (and 3) cars, your post refers to "standard injection system as they left the factory (including ECU/Injection System/Plenum,ie: 135bhp". There are several cars running none standard exhausts, which are reported to give a significant boost to mid range torque. Have exhausts been left free intentionally or is this an over sight? My wife will be happy with these changes, as it eliminates my need to spend significant money to match the power of (k series) class leaders! Then all I need is for each meeting to be wet 😬 PS I'm still running a standard 1.6 (115bhp). When you talk of Academy cars going into class 1, I assume you mean this to be the full Academy spec. including tyres, min weight, no LSD, 5speed. Would I be correct to assume this? Edited by - Richard Price on 9 Sep 2003 10:33:38 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Smith Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Academy cars in class 1??? But they are already winning class 2!!! These cars are easily a couple of seconds a lap of a circuit faster than the 1600cc single cams which make up class 1 at the moment - in my option it'll kill the class, which was turning out to be the closest in the series. 'Tis a pity as it was the only place to competitively sprint a standard Classic... Edited by - Graeme Smith on 9 Sep 2003 10:59:35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardO Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Graeme - when driven by me they're not! R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Nuts Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 I'm with Rob M I'm afraid, on all points, 1.8's especially, it would be good to have them in class 2/3. ☹️ But, I'm not scrapping the Emerald, RR session, cams, verniers and 52mm TB I invested in last winter. I went this route as it seemed more sensible than the Caterham SS kit (which is effectively what it gives me) at the time. I'm a bit reluctant to go DTH TB's and the other mods to be competitive in class 4 (which is where I'll end up) as reliability may suffer (as well as not being able to afford it right now) as I still enjoy using the car on the road as much as possible (9 sprints - 4 more to come this year - and some 13,000 miles since November. Whatever, I'll be there. Maybe it'll be nice to be less competitive, it'll ease the pressure. Of course, if anyone can recommend some driver tuition specifically focussed on speed events... 😬 Guy NN 😳 Lotus @ Herts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Nuts Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Graeme, I'm inclined to agree with you. Be aware that my car was standard Academy last year (except the tyres) and one Nick Potter won class 2 at Curborough in August in a 2003 Academy car with the control tyres (made of granite) on. Oh, hang on, I know what that means, the rest of us are all sh*te! - only kidding!! Guy NN 😳 Lotus @ Herts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Nuts Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 PS - one of the reasons for the upgrades last winter was to get closer to those rather rapid X-Flows Guy NN 😳 Lotus @ Herts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver 21 Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 My back is starting to hurt 😳, are the knives out already 😬 If it was 1st April I could say it was all a joke 😬 and run but I won't. At the end of the day we are trying to make it a fair competition, I'm not sure who has a 180 bhp Xflow in Class 2/3, put your hands up. Perhaps we adopt a staggered transition, Standard 1.8's into Class 2/3 next year and the rest the following year, remember all I'm doing is reponding to requests from other competitors who feel they are at an unfair advantage due to the different competitors interpretation of the Class Structure but unfortunately it falls to me to decide what to go with , that is unless........ ......someone else wants to take up the challenge (note tongue firmly in cheek) Graham Competition Secretary Lydden , Curborough , MIRA , Llandow , Loton Park , Curborough *thumbup*, Aintree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Nuts Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Graham, It's difficult to put over tone of voice in these posts, mine was of course, extremely angry (I'M KIDDING!!!) 😬 I think we're all just trying to throw comments into the pot at the moment. Some of us have invested money in our cars based on the rules as they were. Others maybe want to avoid that investment by asking for rule changes. But then where does the unfairness lie? Not a debate I want us to get in to please! I think you'll find it very very unlikely anyone would ever want to downgrade their 7 to stay in a class. 180Bhp X-flows - Graham and Keith Perry's can't be far off (Xf350 it's called, 350 bhp/tonne - I have about 280bhp/tonne) Also last year we had Barry Hunt in class 2 with his fire breathing cross flow. Many of us invested in upgrades to try to beat these chaps. Please, don't get cross with me sir, just trying to let you know the reasoning. Bottom line is, class 2 seems to have been fun this year, and last. I can't speak for the other classes of course (yet ) Whatever you decide, I for one will go along with it! Guy NN 😳 Lotus @ Herts Edited by - No Nuts on 9 Sep 2003 11:40:36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 180 bhp - Mr grigsby please come forward, and no sand bagging even tho he only competed in 1 event in it (at lydden and came 3rd overall!) Plus there are people planning upgrades to that spec (you know who you are)... BB - it is an unenviable job that you are doing, and I do not envy you having to consider any change. What ever you decide there are going to be people in competitive cars in each class and people feeling that they are at unfair disadvantage for what ever reason... What ever is decided can it be relatively quick so we know what to plan for. Either way I think i will still be in class3 next year For me personally I think the classes are pretty good (except the 1.8K rule) as they are now (well they suit me ) rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Perry Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Its a good idea that we have this debate now, rather than in the new year, when people are committed. I have no changes in power planned this winter on my X-flow. I think 1.8 plenum cars should be in class 2. As to the other changes re plenum etc I think its appropriate that I don't complain about something that doesn't effect me. Guy, yes power to weight is 350/tonne, but when to add the drivers it is a lot closer as we are both on the lardy side and I have no tallent at all, whereas my brother occasionally produces it (about once every two years) and then doesn't understand where it came from ! Keep debating and Bacon butty don't let this get you down as we all appreciate your efforts Edited by - Graham Perry on 9 Sep 2003 12:06:21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted September 9, 2003 Area Representative Share Posted September 9, 2003 Graham(BB), I agree with Rob that "it is an unenviable job that you are doing" and feel that you should not carry the full burden of having made unpopular decisions. Perhaps (has this been discussed before) a working party should get together, consisting of current competitors and (hopefully) unbiased but knowledgeable persons, to share this burden. Whilst it would suit me to introduce these sweeping changes for next year, I also understand that people have already invested in modifications to their cars to fit the regulations for the classes. With a staggered transition it will help us to decide our longer intentions and investments. I would be happy to see STANDARD 1.8 K's in class 2/3 next year. Edited by - Richard Price on 9 Sep 2003 12:07:39 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powderpuff Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Time for my 2p... It would be interesting to know how many people sprint outside of the L7 events. My understanding (correct me if I'm off course) is that the L7 classes don't really match anything in the rest of the MSA regs, so someone trying hard to optimise for L7 events is doing so for very limited (but much more this last year - thanks to BB 😬) use. The serious sprinters who compete at other events generally are competitive in whichever class they fall, so do we need to 'look after them' in the regs, or go for 'normal' members who want to use their cars as they should be? Having been involved in devising the last set of regs, std plenum was indeed meant to be 'as it came from the factory supersport type cars'...no-one was Emeralding things back then. The advantage of a 1.8 was thought to be bigger that it would now appear to be, so me I'm in favour of letting them down to class 2/3. The problem will always come with someone who has a well developed machine, capping the work that you can do on a K series, whilst allowing anything goes on a crossflow would seem unfair if they are in the same class. Are the current regs so unfair as to be discouraging people from even taking part? I haven't done much this year because of moving house and other stuff, and when I did enter my 'home event' (I know a lot of you think I live at Curborough 😬) I get beaten ☹️, but I had such a good day and was genuinely pleased to see Dave win, next year I'll hopefully be in class 5, as I've been intending for 2 years. Still with 1600cc's but should be mixing it with the SLR's, maybe not winning, but personally I'm not that fussed........it's great when you do....but life doesn't stop if you don't. PP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kipper Jnr Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Mr Butty, I am afraid that i would have to object to the proposed changes in class 1. As Graeme has pointed out the Academy cars are a good 2 seconds faster than single cam cars. If your thinking behind the class 1 changes is to make the class bigger then i don't agree. We had 10 competing at Curborough and the results proved to be the closed of the day. With the proposed changes to Class 2 then the new academy cars would be competitive in class 2. But plus the 1.8K cars and keeping the same people in class 2 could mean a class of 20+ so why not split the class according to non standard changes. Class 2a - non factory standard class 2 + 1.8K class 4 cars Class 2b - completely standard class 2 + 1.8K class 4 cars Class 2c - My mum (so she wins a prize) 😳 😬 Rob (hopefully not offending anybody) Ford: Engineered for life - built to rust!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powderpuff Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Class 2c - My mum (so she wins a prize) 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Kipper Posted September 9, 2003 Author Share Posted September 9, 2003 Robert Your post made me laugh out loud and everyone in the office turned round and looked at me 😳 Kipper Fun is not a straight line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Nuts Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Kipper Jr, "class 2c" - Awww, aren't you sweet! My car produces about 145bhp at the crank in its current form. It was dyno'd at 131 bhp in its standard - yes standard, sealed, Academy spec. Go figure! In the non L7C sprints I am up against the likes of Mike Bees and other 200bhp + Guy NN 😳 Lotus @ Herts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Smith Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 One change I would be in favour of is to alter the "fastest novice/lady/lady noivce" awards from being outright time to the best percentage of the class winning time. Stick a novice in a Fireblade and they'll probably be able to put a sub-65 second run around Curborough. But is it better than someone who manages to come within a second or two of the winner's time in class 1 or 2...? But it would require some calculations. Comments (even that you understand what I'm on about)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 PP - i have never sprinted outside of the l7 championship and to be honest I do not think I would, I think what we have here is great, and to be honest the cars are probably more evenly matched in our series when compared to mix car ones.... also even if the regs are changed as to make me uncompetitive I would still compete becasue as mentioned before it is such good fun rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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