Joe 90 Posted August 29, 2003 Share Posted August 29, 2003 I've been asked to find out if it's any good. Anyone know? Starting all over at 40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 Not heard of this one. There are two types of lead substitutes, some are a fuel additive containing some chemical that allegedly does the same job as the lead compunds used to do, some are fuel "catalysts" that either fit intothe fuel line or fit in the tank. As this one has cat in the name sounds like the latter. The additives could work, depends on how well the chemistry is worked out. The fuel catalysts, ie Broquet, I am very sceptical about. To start with they can't explain how they work, they produce a stream of pseudo science mumbo jumbo that may impress someone who failed CSE science but doesn't come close to convincing me. Then they trot out a letter from Mr Smith in Bristol who's done 10,000 miles in his 15 year old Allegro (no doubt at a maximum speed of 35mph in the middle lane of the M5 with his flat cap on....) and hasn't suffered valve seat recession. Is that what they call a back to back scientific experiment, cos I don't? Oh and all these gullible souls have just spent £50 on this snake oil b*ll*cks so are they going to stand up and say I've been stitched up? No they try to justify the decision by pointing out how well they work. Oh and these same catalysts also improve fuel consumption AND give more power as well. Doing both probably contravenes one of the laws of thermodymnamics but I forget which one. So do we get a back to back dyno test (which would cost what, £100?), no we get another letter from Mr Jones who's Maestro does 56 mpg when it only did 55 before. Do Ferrari fit fuel catalysts to their F1 cars? Ask yourself why they spend millions getting another 10 bhp when they could spend £50 on a catalyst and get the power that way. Same with OEM's, why spend millions getting another 5 mpg and reducing emissions when they could spend £50 and get it from a catalyst? The answer to all of this is of course because they don't work, they can't work, it's a scam. Don't put money into these shysters pockets. Spread the word to your friends too. Remember if it seems too good to be true then it probably isn't true..... Bit of a soapbox of mine that (expect you noticed.....). Apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Smith Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 well the additive worked for me - very pleased with the results. (I have no connection with the manufacturers except as a satisfied customer) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bare Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Ohhh... did you also find that your car does 56mpg rather than the 55mpg Before? C'mon Mate .. How could you possibly tell the difference.. short of taking a Micrometer to the Valve seat area, after a few thousand miles of useage? A tankfull of 'Leaded' every few months is more than adequate to 'save' yer cast iron edges passed off as Valve seats from wearing down :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss_Tony Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 There was a "proper" test a while ago. They used new 1.3 Maestro engines and ran them on a dyno each engine having a different fuel additive/miracle fuel thingy. All the ones using a fuel additive were ok and showed little if any sign of valve seat recession. ISTR the Millers one came out best. All the ones using a miracle fuel cat thingy either burnt the valves out or were showing signs of imminent failure. Just for the record some of the miracle fuel cat thingy manufacturers wouldnt put their products forward for testing. The reason that the miracle fuel cat thingy manufacturers get away with selling their products is that when they are fitted to an engine its usually an old engine which has covered a few miles and has a build up of lead etc on the valves and seats. This will last a while before any problems occur. Generally they are aimed at cars which cover low mileages etc ie classics. I have seen quite a few engines which have had a miracle fuel cat thingy fitted and have burnt valves etc. There is nothing to say this would not have happened anyway though. If you need to use an additive ALWAYS use the same product. The ingredients vary and if mixed can cause damage. Same goes for the lead substitute fuel alough this has been found to be less effective than an additive. James Su77on Se7ens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 James - lovely story, do you know if it was reported anywhere? I'm a member of Scoobynet and CSMA (civil service motor club) both of which have Broquet people putting up propaganda, I'd love to be able to shoot this down with reference to a proper report. Last time I criticised Broquet on scoobynet I was threatened with being banned from the board because I'd alleged it was rubbish but had no evidence, despite Broquet saying it was ace with no evidence. Double standards or what? Shows what a good forum Blatchat is, should stick to it I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss_Tony Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 I read about it in a garage trade magazine but I dont know which one. It was a while ago to be honest. It may be worth doing a web search to get some more scientific info. To be honest I cannot see how any of them work. Have you seen inside one? The couple I have cut apart have got what appears to be aluminium balls or rods. I seem to remember one having a magnet to align the fuel particles or something! Are they claiming power gains by fitting their product? Just curious what a Scooby would need one for. James Su77on Se7ens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ranson Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 The FHBVC arranged for MIRA to test products designed to protect engines designed for leaded fuel from the side-effects of removing the lead. AFAIK none of the 'catalyst' type products was submitted although every manufacturer was invited. Reports of this are all over the Internet. I think it's fair to deduce that the manufacturers of 'Broquet' and others do not believe their products protect valve seats, contrary to their public claims. FWIW whatever these products are, they're not catalysts. A catalyst has to be present at the time of the reaction, IOW in the cylinder. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manila V Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 There is a garage near me that still sells 4 star, is this common or something that will only be available for a limited time, thinking about my new engine. EW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Try here for 4 star http://www.bayfordthrust.co.uk/ Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here Light blocks here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 > Just curious what a Scooby would need one for. The JDM models (ie the home versions for the Japanese domestic market) are designed and mapped to run on 100 octane petrol. They also have lots of bells and whistles, twin scroll turbo's, adjustable centre diffs, etc etc, which make them much sought after as personal imports into UK. To run them on UK spec 97 octane SUL some misguided souls are turning to fuel cats. Recipe for disaster or what? > FWIW whatever these products are, they're not catalysts. A catalyst has to be present > at the time of the reaction, IOW in the cylinder. Good point, so they must be some form of additive contained in suspension in a tin ball. If they're anything more than just a tin ball of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Labergorce Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 There's a garage near me that sells good old fashioned 4 star. When i spoke to the guy who runs it he said that it's freely available and any garage can stock it and there are no plans to stop supplying it. But obviously not many people want it these days. Incidentally 4 star is 100 ron and it's a quid a litre at this garage 😳 here's another link for 4star: www.leadedpetrol.co.uk I think it has a connection to the aforementioned bayford thrust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss_Tony Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Graham Do you have access to a fuel cat? As for a substitute for 100 octane fuel do they have knock sensors? Some cars have a ron plug/switch which tells the ecu what octane fuel its running on. This may reduce the chances of any detonation. James Su77on Se7ens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 > Incidentally 4 star is 100 ron Not so. Back in the good old days 5 star was 100 octane and 4 star was 98 octane. Then they introduced unleaded which was 92 (?) octane the same as the old 2 star. Then they stopped doing 4 star and introduced LRP (lead replacement petrol) at the same 98 octane as 4 star. The following year they started doing super unleaded at 97 octane and derated LRP to the same so that they could use the same base for both and add one lot of additives to make LRP and another lot to make SUL. The only change since then has been Optimax, super duper unleaded at 98 octane. For 100 octane you need to buy racing fuel from 76 or similar or go to Germany where Shell's V-max (?) is 100 octane. The leaded petrol that Bayford sell could well be 100 octane. Perhaps this is what you're thinking of. > Do you have access to a fuel cat? Sadly not, nor a spare engine to trash in the interests of science!! what did you have in mind? > As for a substitute for 100 octane fuel do they have knock sensors? Most Scoobies do have a knock snesor and the more modern ones have a pretty clever ECU that retards the ignition quickly at the first signs of det, and as important puts it back up within minutes of getting decent fuel. Unlike the ones from 5 years ago which retarded the ignition promptly but then took a week of good fuel before they got the sparkle back. Mines OK as it's a UK model and only gets optimax (preferably) or SUL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss_Tony Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 I will be taking an engine to the dyno soon and was thinking it would be a good way of trying it out Not a scooby engine by the way James Su77on Se7ens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ranson Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Usefully the Blue Book contains pump fuel specs according to British Standard (where it exists...) Anyway it's page 235 of the 2003 edition. BSEN228 - Unleaded - RON 95.0-100.0 BS7800 - Super Unleaded - RON 97.0-100.0 BS4040 - Leaded (4*?) - RON 97.0-100.0 LRP - Lead Replacement (no standard...) - RON 97.0-100.0 This defines 'pump fuel' from a competition pov. If you really need the octane Total or 76 will sell you 'pump race fuel' which is allegedly nearer 100 than 97 octane. At double the price... Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 The best bit of this thread was the Septic failing to spot the humour in "Mr Smith" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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