Alex Wong1697456877 Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Well after literally years of being told so by Arnie, I've decided that I need to dry sump my engine to protect my already well over budget investment. Question. What is the best way to dry sump it, what's the cheepest, and what's the best? I think the Bell Housing system is very neat but expensive, and I'm not sure about the clutch and hydraulics for it being surrounded in hot oil being ideal. The external tank - do I have to chop the passenger footwell to do this? Which is the one to get? Which scavange pump? Is there an alternative to the Caterham sump pan that's shallow enough? This damned engine upgrade started out as a cam change. It's gone some way beyond that now! Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger King Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Alex, So long as you are happy to shorten the passenger footwell, I'd go for the Crossflow type tank every time. Not only is it considerably cheaper, we find it is technically superior in that it doesn't chuck oil out, is easy to strip and clean, etc. To my mind the main reason for a bellhousing tank is to keep the mass down the centreline on a single seater (plus it saves space). This is hardly relevant for a car where the driver sits on one side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted February 16, 2001 Author Share Posted February 16, 2001 Thanks Roger. How much of the footwell has to go? Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ranson Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 The bit of the footwell that sticks forward into the engine bay usually has to go. I saw a Caterham Vauxhall dry sump sump (IYSWIM) at Swindon recently, it seemed hugely and unnecessarily deep. A purist might investigate more interesting options. Otherwise I would probably go with completely standard Caterham setup, including the tank in the bellhousing. That way you should only have to worry about the engine upgrade and not about installing and developing a one off lubrication system. One of the disadvantages of the tank in the passenger footwell is heat, on a trip a passenger with normal legs is probably going to need fireproof boots... Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee_fin Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 I think the downside to the bellhousing option would be that in the event of a failure you'd have to shell out to replace both (witness R500s sawing through their bellhousings and the resulting dent in the credit card). If you can put up with the small loss of space in the passenger footwell go for that option. It also makes a handy footwarmer for the passenger in the absence of a heater! _______________________________ www.fluke-motorsport.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted February 16, 2001 Author Share Posted February 16, 2001 Thanks. Has anybody got any pics of the tank in situ? Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Lydford Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Alex, although it's not a seven, my West-field Eleven is a x-flow dry-sump system, I've sent you a piccy of the car and engine bay area so you can see the oil tank & cooler etc: the dry-sump was done by Vegantune, Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 I've done the shortened footwell thing but don't have any pictures I'm afraid. I'm in Cheltenham which can't be far from you so you're welcome to come and have a look. The amount of footwell that needs removing will depend on the exhaust manifold design, a compact manifold will leave more room for the tank. I use a 155mm dia tank (most are 190mm)about 350mm high, have a measure. I use an SBD dry sump pan which is pretty solid and very shallow. As well as the tank location the Caterham system differs from most in that they retain the pressure pump in the engine and add an external scavenge pump whereas all other systems use a remote combined pressure/scavenge pump. I think the combined pump is a better option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Russell Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Alex, Another factor to take into account is the restriction in leg room for your passengers. Do you have friends taller than 5'10" who may want a ride for more than a few miles? My chassis is a Vauxhall Race car chassis and has a shortened passenger footwell...precludes giving rides to a lot of people.... Just another problem for you! Regards Andrew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted February 16, 2001 Author Share Posted February 16, 2001 Thanks everybody. Have ordered an external system. Off to QED to pick it up today. What's the best way to shorten the footwell? Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 this may be a dumb question (and probably is) but why does it have to go in the space of the passenger footwell, would it not be possible to put it near where the apollo tank is nornally found, in front of the engine and behind the radiator and with hoses route the oil to the correct place? Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Alex, Mine is in front of the pass footwell. Did not need to shorten it. I got it made by Brise fabrications. The external tank systems hold much more oil than the bell housing and I was dubious of 4 litres being enough..... Mine holds around 7 litres ---- comfort zone..... If you go for the external tank, you can also go for a 3 stage external pump which means you no longer rely on the vauxhall pump for the pressure side. the gears in the VX pressure pump are known to be weak. Be careful mesing with this stuff though.... The inexperience of the fitter of my dry sump system is what caused my big blow up all those years ago. If you want to come down and take a look while its all in pieces you are welcome. Otherwise I can post a photo or two when its back together....... Arnie Webb The Fat Bloke blush.gif in a Slow Old Vauxhall wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Perry Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Like Arnie,I have a Brise Fabrications tank one as well. It sure looks weird being of a stepped design so it sits on part of the footwell but you do not need to butcher the well as it was designed specifically for a Caterham. Caterhams didn't design it even though the company is right near their factory . It is worth every penny I paid for it and has seen 5 years service with no troubles. I think their number is 01322 277622. I really am surprised more people don't use them. I have lost count of the number Seven owners saying to me 'now thats a good idea, I wish I had thought of that'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Heat in footwells. The dry sump tank in my XFlow did heat the footwell up massively to begin with, the tank sitting only about 2 inches from the end of the footwell. I have largely overcome this by placing a heat shield plate between the two, just an a4 sized ally sheet. It stops the footwell becoming painfully hot, now it gets warm! Arnie, have you had any heat problems??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted February 16, 2001 Author Share Posted February 16, 2001 Arnie/Graham The brise tank sounds like a good idea, but as Robster says, doesn't it cook the passengers feet? Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Alex, On Robsters car (live axle or early didion without footwell extension) he does not have the extension so the tank has more surface area in proximety to the footwell. I have never ever had a passenger notice their feet cooking..... Arnie Webb The Fat Bloke blush.gif in a Slow Old Vauxhall wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted February 16, 2001 Author Share Posted February 16, 2001 I guess I'd better ask QED to take the tank back. I'd definitely rather not cut the footwell if I don't have to. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartG Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 The Brise "keep the footwell" tank is at least £250 more than a normal cylindrical one. I reckon a location at the front of the engine is worth investigation, if you could squeeze a tank just in front of the rhs of the motor then all pipes could be kept very short and neat. I suppose this puts weight further from the centre of the car but the tank weighs very little and it's not got that much oil in it when motor's running and the pipes weigh less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Dent Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 IIR I paid about 200 notes for my keep your footwell tank. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Alex, My "Keep the footwell" tank was £80 Its just like the crossflow one thought a little taller and narrower, and does not split to clean. Arnie Webb The Fat Bloke blush.gif in a Slow Old Vauxhall wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Alex if you are fitting the qed kit you will probably have to modify the left hand side engine mounting bracket and also the position of the alternator. If you do fit the tank in front of the passenger footwell all you have to do is insulate the tank with aluminized heat wrap to stop the heat. cheers dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted February 17, 2001 Author Share Posted February 17, 2001 Dave, I've gone for a QED sump, a Caterham scavenge pump (mounted inlet side) and at the moment, a QED tank which would definitely need the footwell to be chopped. I will have to look into this Brise tank cos it sounds like an ideal solution. By using the Caterham Vx pump, I'm assuming none of the left hand side will need to be altered. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartG Posted February 17, 2001 Share Posted February 17, 2001 Arnie, your tank may only have cost 80 quid but you had to buy a new exhaust manifold and modify the bonnet to fit it. There was a mention of the Brise special tank in LF but it was ages ago, Brise will send a reprint and they quoted approx £350. I got the impression this price was because they don't make them very often, Alex maybe you should instigate a dry sump tank bulk purchase. Also Alex, if you're going to use the existing pressure pump it might be worth new gears or at least close examination but at least with this set up you still get oil pressure if the belt comes off... until the tank runs dry that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted February 17, 2001 Author Share Posted February 17, 2001 So how many people want one. See LF July 97 for a pic. I don't think the plumbing from the scavange pump is in the right place for a Vx. I spoke to Brise today and will investigate altering is a bit. I think it's going to be the solution for me though. Stewart, Thanks for the oil pump advice. I've seen a broken sintered one before and will be uprating mine. Cheers, Alex Alex Wong www.alexwong.net _________ / / ___ _/______ /_ ___ / (_) (_)/ /`-'/o/ _______ o/`-'/ / /// ( VDU7X ) \/ / /___/--_________/--/___/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted February 17, 2001 Share Posted February 17, 2001 Stewart, My bonnet is STD except for the cut out for the Jenveys, although you could be right about the exhaust manifold in which case add £1000!!!!! Arnie Webb The Fat Bloke blush.gif in a Slow Old Vauxhall wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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