I reply to every thread Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 That 235 was pretty quick from where I was sitting ❗ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Burrell Posted August 14, 2003 Author Share Posted August 14, 2003 Aves - is your car that Arnie has just driven still approx 200bhp? I don't think I could get Jenvey throttle bodies and a Quaife box for £2500 now though. Could I? Arnie - is your new 235 on carbs? If so, presumeably you're saying that a 200 on fuel injection feels better than a 235 on carbs - and that certainly does make your point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 A little under 200 bhp I'd say. Certainly you can do that conversion for that sort of price if you do the work yourself & wait for some bits to arrive for sale 2nd hand. Quaife boxes come up fairly regularly for circa £600. I had a bad time with mine but that's another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
microlightman Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Guys, This is the best thread *ever*. *smile* I am learning much. I think Im in a similar position to Mick in spending time pondering over Which? upgrade. Until recently thinking -200BHP, a) to keep price down and b) avoid comments "you cant bloody drive it". But by the time you spend some money mucking about, and want torque too- it seems, might as well go for it.... I'm dying to see what conclusion Mick comes too.... Heres my question: For a balanced system - What is the "break-point" (upgrade wise) of the type-9 box? *smile* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss_Tony Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 I use the Caterham type d/s system on my vx with the steel gears etc but with an external tank. I didnt like the idea of the bell housing type. This works great for trackdays and road use. A bit of advice:- Take the power increases by fitting injection with a pinch of salt. On a standard engine it will NOT give any extra power let alone the 30bhp plus claimed by some. What it will give is smoother power delivery than the standard carb/jet set-up which is not right to start with. The carbs could be re-jetted to give similar levels of driveability to injection for a fraction of the cost. The down side with carbs is a bit higher maintenance ie they need balancing etc occasionally. James Su77on Se7ens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss_Tony Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Microlightman "Heres my question: For a balanced system - What is the "break-point" (upgrade wise) of the type-9 box?" I have broken mine this year after lots of abuse(2 years worth). It was just the synchros which went. Other than that its been good. Mine has a semi-helical Quaife gear kit. I cant tell you how much power my 7 has as its confidential but its quicker than K2RUM 😳 James Su77on Se7ens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 "Take the power increases by fitting injection with a pinch of salt. On a standard engine it will NOT give any extra power let alone the 30bhp plus claimed by some." Absolute unmitigated rubbish - particularly if you are going from standard injection. Even with carbs the injection & ecu change will give 15-25 bhp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Burrell Posted August 14, 2003 Author Share Posted August 14, 2003 James - You can buy just the parts of the Caterham system you require and not just a complete kit? (Arnie seems VERY keen on their sump pan - quote "buy the sump pan from Caterham - trust me on this one".) What do you mean by steel gears? If I went the route of cams, I was considering asking QED to fit them then re-jet the carbs based on their findings on their dyno. They could also tell me whether it would be worth fitting vernier pullies to gain maximum effect - they advised against bothering unless you were able to test thoroughly as most of the time their mildest cams are fine with the standard pullies. One thing I have been able to do over the years is do the odd balancing trick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 You can buy the dry sump parts individually yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss_Tony Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Matt "Absolute unmitigated rubbish - particularly if you are going from standard injection. Even with carbs the injection & ecu change will give 15-25 bhp." As you are better informed than myself please could you explain how 😳 James Su77on Se7ens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss_Tony Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Mick As Mr Aves says all the parts are available individually. If you decide to go for a different dry sump tank arrangement there are a few alternatives. Apart from not being the best solution imo the bell housing tank is very expensive. Arnie's is very neat and retains the extra foot room for a passenger. Mine loses the passenger footwell extension to give a bit more room. The steel gear is for the oil pump. The standard one has been known to shatter at higher revs. They are available form SBD,QED,Swindon etc. Personally I would use verniers. I fitted a set of QED cams a while ago and found that there was some power to be found with the cam timing. 10-15 bhp iirc. James Su77on Se7ens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 & of course it's not just the extra bhp at the top end but the extra power & "drivability" throughout the rev range. James - do you really want me to teach you to suck eggs 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss_Tony Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Matt I did mention that the injection is smoother power delivery. What escapes me is the reason why people seem to think that it will give in your words " up to 25 bhp more". The ball is in your court In your obviously well informed opinion would injection give my engine the same increases ie 15-20%? James Su77on Se7ens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Burrell Posted August 14, 2003 Author Share Posted August 14, 2003 Come come gentlemen! Lets not have a pop at each other. I and others am finding this thread very informative and helpful - even if the opinions differ. I'm aiming to stick with no more than 200bhp, but nobody has yet felt the necessity to call me a p***ock even if they are thinking it in private! I have chosen to disagree with their approach and mega horses, but I've still welcomed their advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss_Tony Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Mick Wouldnt life be boring if we all agreed Also someone has to play devils advocate James Su77on Se7ens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 James, AVES is indeed better informed than your good self, but that has something to do with the duration of his education. 😳 Just recently I heard he was not allowed out because he was revising. Regarding your comments on Carbs vs Injection you will find no argument to counter the fact that it is rather hard to make a carburettor with smooth tapered chokes. Perhaps your information on injection is derived from experience with DCOE type throttle bodies and the less than perfect (carburettor compatible) manifolds they use. In this case, as I have explained many times a DCOE style throttle body will suffer much of the shortfalls of carbs. Its not just about power/torque for any given rpm, its as much about induction velocity and fule atomisation . A high pressure fuel system can very obviously ramp up the atomisation level far more quickly. The result is a much more driavble car - as I said to Mick - AVES 200bhp car is without a doubt a crisper more urgent feeling car than the 235 I have just procured. Its also very unlike a compnay like Swindon to get the jetting wrong. As for your car to car comparisons I would suggest its good to base your theoris on a level playing field. Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM website See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Edited by - Fat Arnie on 14 Aug 2003 16:55:43 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Burrell Posted August 14, 2003 Author Share Posted August 14, 2003 Time to take stock! These are my proposals from what you've told me so far : Dry sump - Caterham pan (trusting Arnie), scavenge pump also Caterham? Tank from where and what size? Stick with original internal oil pump as being O.K. for up to 200bhp and say 7500rpm? Exhaust - either pipes from unknown with box by Ammo or all from H&S Extra power - mild cams and management (inc throttle position sensor) from QED. Put in the high spec rod bolts for peace of mind. Probably use vernier pullies and get carbs re-jetted by QED. Consider light flywheel and solid whatsits rather than hydraulic, but again for peace of mind rather than necessity. Any final comments to clear up my last few points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Arnie -I concur- You took the words right out of my mouth It's decorating that stops me being allowed out at the mo but I'm going to stand up for myself from now on. Edited by - AVES on 14 Aug 2003 17:04:47 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss_Tony Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Arnie The point I was making is that throttle bodies will not give any bhp increases on the scale that Aves is talking about. I realise that driveability can be improved but this is not the only point being made. James Su77on Se7ens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 They will - Nah nah nah nah nah You'd better tell SBD, Swindon & QED that they're talking out of their asses then ❗ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
microlightman Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Mick, Thanks for your offer, Ill call you later if I may - to pick up the background scoop. Meanwhile, isnt it the case that your 200BHP will mostly be at the top end unless you do the throttle body thing, and won't you be disappointed having put the effort in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Mick, Forget the Dry Sump. You really do not need it unless you are doing track days and really pushing it. I ran K2 RUM for a year with a wet sump with no problems. Spend the money on the SBD 208 kit - you will not look back. James' incohate conclusions are totally wrong with respect to Aves additonal horsepower gained through the use of Jenvey SF 48mm 4.5 degree taper TB's. He forgets the difference between a VX on 48mm carbs (185bhp as all the VX race cars were) and an SF injected car at around 200bhp is actually only 15bhp. As Microlightman comments however, this is top end power. If you want the big mid range gains, TB's are the ONLY way to go. Your oil problem will be adequately resolved with the SBD cam cover mod which costs about 10 pence. You really do not need DS unless you spend at leats 50% of your time at over 8000 rpm or driving to the brink of understeer in tight left hand corners. Only then do you risk airiation or oil surge. A Swindon steel pump gear would however be a "nice to have" option. Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM website See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny. Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 I had a Hpc factory built car on 45's and a Banks Europa with the same pre93 XE motor at the same time. Caterham spec at the time was 45's, DTA 3D and throttle pot(huge improvement over factory ignition system), QED 42H cams, SBD oil pump gear, uprated rod bolts. Lotus spec. was Jenvey throttle bodies, 42H cams, MBE, rod bolts etc. etc. Lotus was crisper and sharper all the way through to max. revs.......................but cars gave very similar power at wheels on same rollers, both circs 180bhp. Kenny SLR400 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Burrell Posted August 14, 2003 Author Share Posted August 14, 2003 At least none of you have suggested that I eat lettuce and give up the chips! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Burrell Posted August 14, 2003 Author Share Posted August 14, 2003 O.K. Arnie! I'll go see SBD - they're only an hour away. But if they come up with yet another possible solution I'll scream. But I'll probably still dry sump anyway - I worry a lot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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