Mick Burrell Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 Anyone care to offer advice/suggestions as to parts/suppliers? I am considering a dry sump (probably not the Caterham in bell housing version), swapping twin Webers for fuel injection and fitting a side exit exhaust to replace the under car I currently have. Also, although some claim that injection will give a small power increase (the aim of the exercise) some claim it will not and that swappimg to a mild but different camshaft plus engine management would be the answer. I've already had brilliant advice and help from Steve Foster to get me this far but at the risk of getting 200 different views to confuse me, over to you guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 In my opinion your best option by a long way is to talk to SBD. They have their 208bhp kit which is fuel injection on an otherwise standard engine. This is a great start and is a very driveable package, so much nicer to drive than a carbed engine and more power too. Then you can keep the same throttle bodies and other bits, upgrade pistons and cams and get 235, 252 or more bhp. They do everything else for Vauxhalls too, inc dry sumps. Great kit, great guys to talk to, very knowledgeable but sadly not the cheapest. Others on the list will slag them off but I've been dealing with them for 10 years and have had great support from them. They're on http://www.sbdev.co.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 Mick, Swapping to DCOE style TB'swill likely yield no maximum power increase, swapping to a taper type throttle body almost certainly will. Jenvey SF Tapers are the best low cost TB's for the VX available from Jenvey direct www.jenvey.co.uk or SBD or QED, neither of the latter I particularly recommend from my experiences. SBD are cheap compared to Swindon! Throttle bodies as a whole and in particular taper types will yield massive improvements in drivability and low/mid range torque over carbs. You have to drive back to back to believe just how big the difference is. To get the best results you need a bespoke exhaust, although a set of Caterham VX Race primaries with a collector whihc is increased to 2.5" outlet dia and a similarly sized silencer will be perfect unless you intend going the wrong side of 250bhp. As for dry sumpo, the Caterham system is by far the best packaged in that removal of the engine does not require disconecting D/S hoses which gets very messy. The Caterham sump is by far the best irrespective of who's system you go for as it is designed for the car. If you go the Caterham route and are building something which revs the wrong side of 8000rpm be sure to get the Swindon Steel Oil Pump gear for the pressure pump (the Caterham system retains the VX OE oil pump)for around £80. Finally, be sure to chaneg the rod bolts for ARP if you are going over 7200rpm, and make sure you fit lead based B/E bearings rather than tin or it'll end in tears. Fat Arn [red'>Visit the K2 RUM website [green'>See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Edited by - Fat Arnie on 12 Aug 2003 22:14:35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Burrell Posted August 13, 2003 Author Share Posted August 13, 2003 Thanks for the two replies so far. I'm not looking for a huge power increase - up to about 200bhp or so should be fine. I'm reasonably capable with a spanner (I did build the car eleven years ago and nothing's fallenn off!) but I don't know what components I actually need, so a "complete kit" would be useful rather than bits from here there and everywhere. Any comment on the idea of replacement cams instead of injection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 I had a QED Q420 kit with carbs which was good and good value. I then added DCOE style throttle bodies which made some difference to outright power but as FA says, the big gain was in drivability. Although never tested, this setup felt like about 200BHP. Don't pay too much attention to BHP claims. There are so many ways of measuring it and they are not always an accurate indicator of the end result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Burrell Posted August 13, 2003 Author Share Posted August 13, 2003 Thanks Alex. As I said, I'm not chasing lots of horsepower and I'd like to avoid too many modifications. I tend to be over cautious so I'd end up beefing up all sorts of bits of the engine just to make sure I didn't break it. For example, as I'm finally getting a little quicker on track, I've started throwing oil into the catch tank (that's how this all started) which is I believe a known problem which can be cured by removing a plate or baffle in the cam cover. This would probably be sufficient for my use and ability, but I prefer the dry sump route as a more "belt & braces" job. So if I went the route of QED cams, left to my own devices, I'd probably lean towards their Q42H as a "safe" option. But that's why I'm asking the questions and seeking the advice of those who have "been there, done that". I don't have a bottomless wallet, but I'm sure I can settle for something which would make the car quicker, nicer to drive and still fairly bullet proof at much less than it would cost me to swap for an R400! I should be able save about 20kg on overall weight too, but sadly I like chips and hate lettuce so it's not likely to happen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
microlightman Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 The Jenvey website lists SBD and QED as recommended suppliers. Do the SBD kits all use Jenvey throttle bodies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Burrell Posted August 13, 2003 Author Share Posted August 13, 2003 Arnie - I've just had a look at the K2 RUM web site and despite your glowing report for Caterham's dry sump (above), that's not what you're using is it? Also, do those injector trumpets need a bonnet modification? Oh, and I can't see me getting near 250bhp or 8,000rpm! Edited by - Mick Burrell on 13 Aug 2003 14:26:25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Burrell Posted August 13, 2003 Author Share Posted August 13, 2003 Chelspeed - it sounds as if you've been down this route or have you just used SPD for other things? If the former, what exactly did you buy? Looking at the picture of their kit, there doesn't seem to be a pump. Should there be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 Mick My suggestion is to have a clear brief and stick to it. It is easy to upgrade one element and then another and find you have spent a fortune. Trust me it is very easy... Look at drive train upgrades as well to make sure there is equilibrium in the car If you can purchase a proven package this will be a lot better than trying to reinvent the wheel. Suggest you take BHP figures ( guys not wishing to upset anyone ) with a pinch of salt and try out someone else's car to check the package is where you expect it to be. Anthony Wheels on, and fuel and cooling systems next with laminova ! Leaving electrics too last.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 Arnie uses the Slim Jim pump and a Caterham sump pan with an oil tank at the end of the passenger footwell. As you say he doesn't use the bell-housing tank. The Jenveys do require a different bonnet cut-out to carbs. If you are going from standard injection & therefore have no cut-out your original bonnet can be modified to suit - just. When buying a dry-sump kit make sure you get a quote that includes every component needed - there are invariably hidden (& expensive) extras. The same applies to throttle body kits - stuff like looms, ecu's throttle pots, cam blanking plates, modifications to breathing can all add to your original price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Burrell Posted August 13, 2003 Author Share Posted August 13, 2003 Anthony - I take on board what you say. Perhaps an explanation of my motives may help. As I said earlier, I am throwing out oil on track. It has been suggested that the cam cover mod will be fine for what I need but I am considering that a dry sump, although being "belt & braces" is probably the way to go. My original, under car exhaust is nearing the end of its life and is no longer available so I need to start afresh with a complete side exit. I'm happy with my Webers and the power and driveability of the car, but if I'm doing the other two bits, I would like to consider a small increase in power at the same time. Small so as not to have to do never ending modifications to other bits to handle it. So it's general questions like fuel injection or cams for power, (or don't upgrade power) and which dry sump and which exhaust. I'm hoping to get agreement (fat chance!) and then a list of bits needed so I don't fall into the trap AVES highlights with throttle bodies. If I price it all up at £3,000 to £4,000 then fine, if it comes out at £5,000 to £6,000 then I'll consider selling and buying an R400. Perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Johnson Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 Mick, I changed to 3Dignition & a James Whiting spec side exhaust (4 into 1, tuned lengths) the betting on my car is c 190/195 bhp the exhaust was pretty pricy, c £1100 from memory, but I am told that going to 215/220 will now only cost c£500 Geoff J392PPD VX & Flares how untrendy can I be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Burrell Posted August 13, 2003 Author Share Posted August 13, 2003 Geoff - You've kept your carbs? Is it James' own exhaust? He's been saying he's going to get round to making one for ages - I'd given up asking if it's available! (No sign of it on his web site.) How would you now go to 215/220? Edited by - Mick Burrell on 13 Aug 2003 16:38:56 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
microlightman Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 Aves, Re: Bonnet cutout... What if you go from Carbs to throttle bodies (Jenvey? SBD?) can you modify the cutout or do you have to start again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 Hayward & Scott will do you a very nice exhaust for a VX for less than £1100. Their work is top class. http://www.haywardandscott.co.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 microlightman - dunno - but I suspect that you'd have a big hole! Bonnets are a ton plus painting even if modified to remove the front louvres so in the grand scheme of a TB conversion that ain't a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 > Chelspeed - it sounds as if you've been down this route or have you just used SPD for > other things? I had a crossflow then I bought a standard Vauxhall and fitted SBD's 208 bhp kit. Then the following year I went to 252bhp by changing cams and pistons, I went dry sump, steel rods and steel crank at the same time. All from SBD. They do sell a dry sump pump. Then the following year I went to about 270bhp with some head work and also fitted a tiny flywheel and 7 1/2 inch clutch. Again all from SBD. Then I fitted slipper pistons with long rods. Then I got an alloy block from QED and it all went a bit pear shaped for a year or so while we explored incompatibilities between SBD pistons and rings and the QED block. Then I got a boggo pig iron block and went 88m slipper pistons, 2.1 litre, an eight injector carbon induction system and an even smaller flywheel and 5.5 inch clutch. All from SBD. Finally the year before last I got a Coscast head (with 5mm stem big valves and loads of head work) and a motorsport block. SBD reckon I've got 299 bhp, others reckon about 280bhp, whatever it's a lot. Bear in mind this is all still breathing through the original 208bhp throttle bodies and still using the same cams since 252bhp. You can see I'm a fan..... Next year who knows, probably some more experiments with the QED block as others seem to be able to make it work fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 Mick, My glowing report of the Caterham DS system relates to a medium level of tune on the engine. It does not j=hold too much oil in the bellhousing tank which is why I have gone for a larger external pump. Likewise for the pump, the Caterham item is a bit suspect at 9000rpm speeds (its the std VX item remember, and likely, though design to aireate the oil) so an external pump to manage pressure and scavenge is the way to go with an engine like mine. It makes a reall mess when I have to take the engine out, and AVES will concur that the combination of oil and antifreeze (from the cooling system) makes for a combination on the floor which would challenge Torville and Dean.... Go to an exhaust specialist for an exhaust - H & S handmake at a very competitive price (better than that Aves quoted) , but they need the car to jig it on. You should get away with £3000 - 4000 if you do the work yourself, and you will save money if you do not need to change your clutch (go for an AP 4 paddle item with a Helix cover - around £250 all in) or the gearbox (if you are using a non-quaife 5 spd it will have silly ratio's and last about 5 miles!) The SBD taper kit is pretty much complete but does exclude the disty blanking plate, longer HT leads, & coil pack if you want to go wasted spark. It also excludes all the stuff you need to plump in the fuel tank (get a K series tank with the internal pump) and the fuel hose and couplings you will require (which are pretty costly!) Also injectors are not included but I have a set of the appropriate type for sale! Finally the SBD DS kit can be bought cheaper from Pace Products (who make them non-exc. for SBD) Buy the sump pan from Caterham though.... trust me on this one....... When you have sorted out what you are going with, drop me a list by email and I will look through it and advise if you are missing anything..... Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM website See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Burrell Posted August 13, 2003 Author Share Posted August 13, 2003 O.K. it's getting scary now! If I accept that I don't NEED a dry sump, but want to use one as being a better solution that just the cam cover mod, is it daft to just get the pan and scavenge pump and utilise the existing pump for pushing oil around the engine? Honestly - I really do believe I'd be happy with just under 200bhp. Will I really need to hit mega revs to achieve this? If not do I keep my dear old Webers and buy a (relatively) inexpensive pair of "warm" cams? Finally exhaust. H&S - Ammo - James Whiting? I want toenjoy a quiet track day from time to time! I understand where you mega power guys are coming from, and I'm hoping I don't get the bug, but has anyone else tried the gentle approach and stuck with it or am I just being a woos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 My very 2nd hand, side and rear exit 2.5" bore Techcraft came in at 91 dB at 4500 rpm. The side exit alone of 104 dB. Same meter same place of test, same tester. You need a ride in my car to see TB's VS carbs on a stock engine upto 7250 rpm. Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here Speedy Steve's Workshop, Servicing, setup, fitting here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 My Raceco can with a standard VX on cards (which make the majority of the noise) 99db static and below 87db drive by, at Bedford. The Raceco can is top notch, as is the customer service. Chris.... H15 SVN Get it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Johnson Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Hi Mick, yup mine is still on webbers. James had to get the exhaust made up from an old set of plans, mine was done about 18 mths back. My plan is certainly to move over to the upgraded cams & get that 20/25 bhp more. The car felt much more responsive after the exhaust & ignition change as well. I did what I did as a base to build on ... & doesn't everybody always need more power? Arnie are you happy that you have enough yet? Geoff J392PPD VX & Flares how untrendy can I be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 To make a point, I have recently aquired a Swindon 235 HPC to "tide me over" while K2RUM is being fixed (its unlikley to see tarmac before March 2004). The other night I drove it, and Aves std VX on Jenvey TVB's back to back. Aves car has much more low down grunt and generally felt much quicker. Point made? Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM website See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 I went the "warm route" - from standard injection to taper TB's. I changed the box to a quaife at the same time & changed the flywheel to a lightened steel item. Daft not to.I reckon that all up I spent about £2200 -£2500 & maybe went from 165bhp to 195-200 & that is on an otherwise standard lump (save for ARP rod bolts) That's not the end of the story though. Drivability wasn't an issue with the single pull injection but the car pulls harder & stronger everywhere now. Bear in mind that's parts only cost because I was lucky enough to engage the services of Garage du Lard. As chelspeed says the conversion is a good starting point for further work & that is part of the problem - you always want more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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