EFA Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 I need a new ECU for my engine upgrade as my MBE 956 is getting a bit out of date...... I've spoken with the supliers of the above and find the following: MBE - If its not an OEM deal (like the 967 was for Caterham) they want to put all business through SBD. MBE claim all their other agents have no expertise in the more complex ECU's (970) they manufacture and that it will be impossible to get it mapped. Additonally one of the MBE 970 features (gear specific ignition cut - where you can vary the ignition cut duration depending on the gear you are selecting) for the seqential change is apparently in version 6.0 which according to MBE is only available through SBD. I rang Bob Jones (MBE agent in Manchester) and he told me he'd already supplied it!!!??? Motec - Their unit (M4) whist undoutably good does not run upper and lower injectors and for that I need an M48 - The M4 is £1000 + VAT according to Motec who only sell through their agents. Their agents however all seem to think its aroud £1500. On top of that you need external ignition amplifiers which are £250 each. I think this sould easily hit £2500 for ECU only at this rate which is rather difficult to convince Mrs Webb of the benefits over a holiday. DTA - The old E48 EXP is a bit dated, but the P8PRO looks like it might do the job - anyone any experience of theP8PRO? Also DTA are keen to advertise the processor SPEED of their units 16 & 32 Mhz respectively - but how many bits are the processors - 16 or 32? Anyone know? OMEX - This stuff 9OMEM500 and OMEM 550 looks dated on their web site - Rather like the GMS stuff of a few years ago (which I think it is a licenced version of) HOWEVER - There is also and OMEME700 series on their web price list described as "High specification system" - I'm keen to find out what this has for inputs and outputs and if it will do the job. Finally there is Emerald but being for K's I dont know if this works with a 60-2 pickup or if it runs sequential injection and 8 injectors? Anyone know? My wish list in order of importance is as follows: Programable duration flat change up ignition cut - idealy gear specific (although I do not know how MBE have done this) 8 Injector support (Hi low 100% switchable by RPM) Windows XP compliant programming interface and public availability of mapping box if req. An ECU which is up to date from a manufacturer who either provides end user suppport (and proper programming manuals) or who has mor than one agent who knows what they are doing. Sequential Injection (though the true beneift is about 3% fuel saving and better low end running) Or should I go back to Carbs? Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM website See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorAtle Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Why did you leave out GEMS? Just curious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Smith Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Nothing wrong with carbs! As long as they are not crappy Webers. I have a bee in my bonnet about using Keihin Flat Slide motorcycle carbs on my Vx but finding it difficult to get jetting info. With a basic 3D ECU this could be a nice set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Locust Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 I thought Gems and Omex were two sides of the same company............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Are you looking to support traction control/ future software upgrades Arnie ? Sounds like an arm & leg in cost wise, Fancy going down a route of supercharging ? C7 PWT Pure Steel XE. Founder Member of The Twisted Prop Club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss_Tony Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Arnie as you know I recommend carbs 😬 If you go for the DTA I have got a mapping box. It works with the older systems but I am not sure about the newer stuff. James Su77on Se7ens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul D Jones Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 What about Pectel. here Paul. See My Car Here Edited by - paul.d.jones on 26 Jul 2003 18:10:05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 > Programable duration flat change up ignition cut - idealy gear specific (although I do not > know how MBE have done this) MBE have an input which is gear position, you just programme a page that says 0 to 0.6 volt is 1st gear, 0.7 to 1.2 volts is 2nd etc etc. It's called gear and sector assignment and it's a sub-page under traction control in easimap because it was originally put in so that you could select different traction control maps for each gear. You can make this talk to the Quaife pot on top of the box. Not sure if it could talk to both the MBE and a gear position indicator, this isn't a problem for me as the MBE tells the MoTeC dash what gear I'm in over the CAN link. > Additonally one of the MBE 970 features (gear specific ignition cut ...... > is apparently in version 6.0 which according to MBE is only available through SBD. Version 6.20 I think. Mine came from SBD. Also includes a much cleverer launch sequence that works nicely. Best give Steve a ring, eat humble pie, and ask him nicely if you can have a 970. Hmm guess that's not too likely to happen!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted July 26, 2003 Author Share Posted July 26, 2003 Graham, Does the 970 take the gear position signal from the pot on the gearbox lid then? I spoke to the guys who make the displays for Quaife, and they told me getting the ignition trigger to work off the Novotechnik pot had proven near impossible as there is about 10deg of backlash in the bot mechanism and only 40 deg between complete gears. If the MBE one works in this config, I'm excited. I do think the humble pie would give me severe indigestion though..... Pectel looks though it could be intersting as well. Looks a bit like it could be at or beyond the Motec end of the price scale.... Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM website See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Edited by - fat arnie on 27 Jul 2003 00:53:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Yes and no. Sounds like there's some confusion between knowing what gear you're in and actually triggering the ignition cut. The MBE can easily achieve knowing what gear you're in from the pot on top of the quaife box. For example first gear on mine gives about 1.83 V from the pot so I've set the gear sector assignment for 1st gear to be 1.73 to 1.92 V. It hits this window of voltage every time without any spurious wrong gear data being generated. When you talk about iginition trigger I assume you mean getting a signal from the pot to know you're trying to change gear and using this to trigger the ignition cut for flat shift? If so then I'm not suprised, for example 1st gear is 1.84 V, 2nd gear is 2.39 V so to get an ignition cut signal as you start to change gear would mean resolving the very first part of the 0.5 V difference between 1st and 2nd. Any small backlash in the pot or vibration of the stick or variation in voltage would be taken as a spurious indication that you're trying to change gear. Worth trying perhaps but I havn't and it seems unlikely that it would work. I'm still trying to sort out some kind of strain gauge in the stick or knob to trigger the cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Locust Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Are you talking about flat, clutchless changes? If you are still using the clutch, a brakelight-type switch would give positive indication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 I'm talking about full throttle, no lift, clutchless upshifts. I think Arnie is too. The MBE has a facility to just cut the ignition for a fraction of a second (default is 75ms), this unloads the dogs and allows a clutchless gearshift. You can set a different delay for each gearshift to allow for the different time it takes to move from each gear tothe next. Which is where we started, the MBE needs to know what gear you're in to know what delay to use. Without the full throttle shift I don't use the clutch at present for upshifts but I do lift the throttle, about 100% to 70% when it works right but the logging often says I've come right off without meaning to. Full throttle shifts means less delay until you're back on the power but also means the air flow through the engine doesn't have to stop and restart. Some engine people have suggested this is as important. Personally I'm not at all sure of the benefit on my laptimes but it's got to be better in theory and I enjoy playing with the technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartG Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Is Arnie's sequential Quaife a dog box? I had assumed it was a "type 9" synchro type box with a Quaife add on sequential shift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss_Tony Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Dave Edmands uses his sequential with full throttle gear changes. Its Awesome! I have never heard anything quite like it! I must get one! Having heard how quickly it changes i would imagine that it could make a worth while difference with regards to lap time etc. James Su77on Se7ens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dino ferrana Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Having heard the Ford FOcus WRC car going up the hill at Goodwood complete with full throttle changes I would love to have it on my car. The only clue to a gearchange on it was the bang from the exhaust no let up on revs or thrust! Arnie the "ultimate" VX (the one that cost £70,000+) had a Motec ECU and dash display. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmandsd Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 It's a shame we didn't film the previous run before I crashed James as it would have given the viewer an idea as to the speed of shift. I'm certain that MBE does not have the same level of functionality as Motec. Pectel is as good as it gets. Regardless of the ECU i'm sure the speed of change in a Quaife sequential would be to a certain extent limited by the extra masses involved over the Elite box which has smaller (but stronger) gears and a much more compact sequential mechanism. Home of BDR700 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted July 27, 2003 Author Share Posted July 27, 2003 Graham, Just to confirm then - the MBE uses the Quaife pot on the top cover to detect what gear the car is in, and then also uses a switch activated by the lever to actually apply the delay? Guess this switch could be substituted by a load cell as you say. Thsi is where the MBE and Motec are fundimantally different as the Motec relies on only the load cell from what I can figure out (unless the flexibility to program the inputs is, well, really flexible!) Stewart, the box I have is dog engagement.... Dino, I am thinking about the full Motec system (ECU and dash) .................... The MBE is is a very compelling price/performance argument though..... So I think its going to be MBE! Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM website See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted July 27, 2003 Author Share Posted July 27, 2003 Oh and anyone know who else sells MBE apart from SBD, QED, Scholar, Bob Jones, Minister etc??? Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM website See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul D Jones Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Raceline and Mountune Paul. See My Car Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Arnie - you have correctly described how the MBE is mated to the Quaife box in my car, I'm sure there are other ways of doing it. Like wise there are many ways of talking to a Motec ECU, the software is here: http://www.motec.com.au/ for free downloads. Why not try having a play? The options available for gear position input and flat shift should give you a clue as to what's possible and what isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Shurvinton Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 If you can't stretch to a Pectel (their T10 is £10K and only built to custom order). Then the easy answer is to get a Motec BUT buy it from australia. The dealer markup here is silly. Either mail order or get someone to pick one up on holiday. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Hopefully I´ll be able to report about some news in flat-out-shifting within the next few weeks. I´ve got a BOSCH load-cell here waiting to get fitted to the seq. box, combined with a more simple DTA-management. The DTA takes just signals from a switch, so wether ON or OFF. Someone´s going to do a "converter" now for me as the load cell puts out different voltages depending on how much torque is being put onto the lever. So the converter will have to "translate" a certain adjustable voltage into ON/OFF for the DTA. Nice display: http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/deutsch/product_overview/Displays/DDU_2.pdf Don´t ask for the price though.... Marius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted July 29, 2003 Author Share Posted July 29, 2003 Marius, Can you email me a picture of your load cell - I'd like to take a look.... Thx Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM website See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 There´s all the information & a drawing on this site: http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/deutsch/product_overview/Sensoren/Force/GSS.pdf The theory is quite simple: just screw the load-cell on top of the gearlever (there´s a thread on the bottom) and make a new gear-knob out of nylon and screw it on top of it (there´s another thread on top of it). The nylon-knob should cover the load-cell itself then. The load-cell just works into one direction (pulling), so downshifting is not an option (there are other load-cells available which work into both directions). I didn´t start the installation yet as Í still haven figured out how to modify the hardened Quaife gear lever. Perhaps I´m gonna get a new spare one, cut it and get a new top welded on or so. Hadn´t time to do so yet. Marius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ince Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 I am interested in flat shifting using the MBE in my R500 and the Quaife sequential box I have fitted. Info how do do this gratefully received. As far as I am aware Jason Krebs has the only R500 with this setup using a Motec ECU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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