anthonym Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 Preferred with weather kit. Comments welcome. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 Anthony With the utmost respect, it seems like you don't really know what you need Question 1 - why do you want "260bhp"? Whilst there is some undeniable appeal in big numbers, the reality of owning a car with this sort of power level might not meet the on paper promise for you. I realise a number of people own cars of this power evel and more, and that my own opinions are just that. But coming from something like you already have, I suspect simply hiking power may not give you the jump in real world performance that you're probably looking for. Something with a modest increase in power (or even the same power) but with superior dynamics might possibly endow you with an infinitely wider grin than chasing headline figures. A bike engined car, or a light car engined variety (read K of, say, SLR spec or slightly over, or maybe a Duratec) could be the way to go. I'd suggest you take some time and get test rides in a couple of bike engined versions, an SL, an SLR, an R500 and a powerful Vx. Don't just straight line them, take them on a handling trip, preferably on track. And then see which you like. All will offer very different sensations to your BDR and each other. You might even find that you want to keep your BDR. Bit presumptious of me maybe. But I had daft plans to chase 300bhp in my 7. As a stop gap whilst upgrading my SLRish spec car, I bought an R500. Made me realise that you don't exactly need that much more bhp than 200. Yep, the R500 was quicker in a straight line, but round a circuit the difference wasn't that great, and the pure enjoyment factor increase was even less so. More importantly the R500 is actually harder to use quickly on the road for a variety of reasons (a big bhp Vx will be too). I p/x'd the R500 3mths after buying it and have canned any plans for further upgrades on the SLRish car. I'll enjoy that how it is and learn to drive better (as there are people in "lesser" spec cars that are quicker than me round a circuit...). In todays market you'll get burnt if you decide the high power car isn't what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonym Posted July 10, 2003 Author Share Posted July 10, 2003 Please keep talking, I am listening wit all ears. Why burned if it's not what I want? In what ways more difficult on the road? A. of course no one "needs" a Seven :-) Edited by - anthonym on 10 Jul 2003 18:25:46 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 I think your current BDR car will be easier to shift than a high powered Vx or R500. The market for R500s is a bit weak at the moment IMO, similarly for high powered, *nice* Vxs (i.e. more expensive 7s simply aren't selling). Might pick up, might not. You might therefore get a bargain. You might not... An R500 is much more difficult to drive smoothly IME. Undoubtedly quick, but getting a rythmn is difficult. Could well have been mine wasn't set up quite right, but I couldn't be arsed investing the time it took on my SLR spec car (which for me handles really sweetly) to do this. Especially with so much money tied up in it and other metal waiting. It could also be that I'm simply not good enough behind the wheel. Or that it's simply too much power for the road...and it's no good telling yourself you don't have to deploy it all. Fact is, few of us have the ability to modulate the throttle well enough to finesse it. And hit a pothole and you have 15% more power to worry about. Maybe I'm just a girl. Nice as JPEs are, and without wishing to open up debates that have been done to death, they are products of an earlier era (albeit not that long ago) to me. Try all varieties and see which you like would be my strong advice. As your For Sale notice states, the BDR is a lovely car... On Le Sept last year a Fireblade car mixed it with R500s etc. So bhp is far from the last word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonym Posted July 10, 2003 Author Share Posted July 10, 2003 yes I am quietly contemplating the BEC idea.. I'm interested to hear (even) more about driveability - sounds like what we used to call being "cammy" as a result of cams with shorter power ranges etc ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normalbloke.29 Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 You can never have too much power, you can always choose not to use it...lol. I'll make an exception if it's 1000 bhp in a 500 rpm power band... And when you are flat stick, and you just want a little more, the petrolheads worst nightmare? Just my rantings.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonym Posted July 10, 2003 Author Share Posted July 10, 2003 >>I think your current BDR car will be easier to shift than a high powered Vx or R500.<< (1) Lower price always shifts in greater volumes because the market demand is bigger (more people can afford it). (2) There is a deep recession in progress. Both granted. >>The market for R500s is a bit weak at the moment IMO, similarly for high powered, *nice* Vxs (i.e. more expensive 7s simply aren't selling).<< Is the market weak because of demand elasticity (everyone is broke) or because the R500 has missed it's market (people don't want what it offers at the related price of ownership)? Or both? >>Might pick up, might not. You might therefore get a bargain. You might not...<< Granted. >>An R500 is much more difficult to drive smoothly IME. << Challenge accepted. >>Undoubtedly quick, but getting a rythmn is difficult. << We drive them not because they are easy. >>Could well have been mine wasn't set up quite right, but I couldn't be arsed investing the time it took on my SLR spec car (which for me handles really sweetly) to do this. Especially with so much money tied up in it and other metal waiting.<< Sounds like the "technical" underlying reason, exacerbated by the cash reason as described above. Expensive reduced pleasure = get rid. >>It could also be that I'm simply not good enough behind the wheel.<< I would hazard you could be as good as you wanted to be as defined by how much time you were prepared to invest. Again the technical argument: too much hassle to achieve the desired pleasure. >>Or that it's simply too much power for the road...<< This is a personal risk assessment. I do grant that novices should learn on something else, or be prepared to exercise extreme caution with what amounts to a lethal weapon. Many a driver standards discussion could follow here. (no need!) >>and it's no good telling yourself you don't have to deploy it all.<< I rarely if ever deploy all the power available to me, but on occasion I do - when I want reduced time exposed to danger. >> Fact is, few of us have the ability to modulate the throttle well enough to finesse it.<< Please expand on this. Sounds interesting. >> And hit a pothole and you have 15% more power to worry about.<< What, higher speed or more torque suddenly released from the road only to land again with a thud? I have wondered if suspension geometry on these cars is improved such as to offer (some) compensation or assistance in handling the increased power? >>Maybe I'm just a girl.<< My favourite girls drive their own Sevens.. met two this last week. Something very sexy 'bout attractive girl driving her Seven and looking the part to boot... (want to recant?!) >>Nice as JPEs are, and without wishing to open up debates that have been done to death, they are products of an earlier era (albeit not that long ago)<< I thought most Sevens were of an earlier era, including my BDR. Heck, that's part of the attraction >> to me.<< Interesting as that is, even open and scrupulously honest, it's not an argument; so, "ok" :-) >>Try all varieties and see which you like would be my strong advice. << I LIKE strong advice and thank you for it. It offers clear ideas to be agreed, disagreed, explored and generally contemplated as I search my soul for my heart's desire. (Car wise!) >>As your For Sale notice states, the BDR is a lovely car...<< Indeed, I have wondered about having it tweaked, but it is a wonderful package as it stands and I am loath to interfere with the delicate balance achieved in it's design. >>On Le Sept last year a Fireblade car mixed it with R500s etc. So bhp is far from the last word.<< I like their apparent pricing.. I do not want to have to worry about a Porsche 944 accelerating with malice when I am halfway past him at high speed, but perhaps not up to my preferred 10-15mph differential. To name a minor irritant. More power can sometimes make up for our mistakes, whether it gets us into them, well that's a car control issue. I'm just a cautious old bird. Thank you for provoking my thoughtful response, I have enjoyed writing to you and will continue to reflect on your ideas/views. If you choose to reply I will read with interest. Anthony Edited by - anthonym on 11 Jul 2003 00:27:59 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 Couple of points... You mention the "delicate" balance that you like on the BDR. I'm pretty certain you lose the delicate part when over 200bhp - arbitrary limit, of course, based upon my own prejudices. There's a limit to how fast a given chassis design will go round corners. My personal feeling is that over 200bhp exceeds that limit in all circumstances. Probably true that 140bhp does in a 7, which is why so many people regard the std. SL as the sublime choice. But then I've always been a hypocrite and 200bhp gives you the edge on the straights if you need to get past Porkers et al So I can see the arguments for more power all too clearly. Also, any 7s acceleration over 100mph is going to be badly dented by aerodynamics. Could be eased by an aeroscreen (is your BDR so equipped? Quick, easy change that wouldn't have to ruin the car but might make all the difference you require...). More power undoubtedly helps, but these cars' domain is sub 100mph really. My decisions obviously had a shed load of other factors involved, not least of which the realisation that I could afford another car that could add the +100mph adrenalin rush, and provide a completely different and in my view complimentary driving experience (355). But had I felt that the holy grail of 300bhp in a 7 was a "useful thing" (I *am* a 7 nut after all), I would have persevered... My comment on throttle modulation wasn't meant to mean that the K in the R500 is overly peaky. It is relatively peaky, as any high specific output nat.asp engine will be to one extent or another. But it's usable lower down the range. However, the engine spools up so readily, and the throttle is so light (IMO) that judging the revs accurately (enough) always required a lot of concentration. My SLRish car is slightly slower spooling up and the throttle is (semi-deliberately) a good bit chunkier. As a result, modulating the throttle (for me) is significantly less worrisome and enables me to enjoy the car and the drive that bit more on the open road. And also throw it around a good bit more on track. I could have made some mods to the R500 to help I guess... From my limited experience, R500s aren't set up well at all ex-factory. Simple changes to the suspension can make massive differences on 7s as you'll know. Still not saying that an R500/JPE is right/wrong. You have an exciting opportunity and it's a buyer's market. Take your time and try all flavours and see what you think. I have a feeling you might be surprised. PS For a road car I've never been that convinced by BECs, by the way . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonym Posted July 11, 2003 Author Share Posted July 11, 2003 interesting read, thanks. I'll let you know what I discover :-) Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmandsd Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 Anthony - Why don't you ali block what you've got save 20 kgs and have the potential for c 300 bhp. I'm not saying it would necessarily be cheap but nor is buying an R500 or JPE. Home of BDR700 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonym Posted July 12, 2003 Author Share Posted July 12, 2003 because the expenditure would not be recoverable in the sale value of the car? Do tell though, what is involved? Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmandsd Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 You'd basically need an ali block with 90mm Cosworth forged pistons and BDT water pump - All available from KAM Developments in the UK to give you a 2 lt engine @ around £2,500 plus Vat excl build costs. To get the really big numbers you're right in that you'd need to reconsider the head spec and steel components for the extra rpm required etc which will start putting the cost up significantly. That said the parts are out there for reasonable money if you're prepared to be patient, and you should be able to recover such costs in the event of sale when you consider that a full race 2lt BDX from Geoff Richardson on mechanical injection but without exhaust manifold will cost you around £30k incl Vat Home of BDR700 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonym Posted July 12, 2003 Author Share Posted July 12, 2003 soooo, would you spend your 30k on aforementioned BDX or a JPE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brod Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 I might have the very JPE for sale. e-mail me your phone number on brod.crawford@glenvarigill.co.uk and I will contact you on Monday when im at work. This car has an amazing spec eg 2.2 with loads of bhp. I tried to sell this car earlier in the year, had it sold and the customer cocked on the deal. The owner got fed up & decided not to sell but I dare say if a deal was on the table he might just take the bate. The car is 1 of 4 JPE's built by Caterham.This car is very quick. Brod Crawford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Morris Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 JPE Just think, years after they stopped production the debate continues JPE or R500. Expect with the advances in chassis and weight the R500 would take it. But the JPE remains so rare that we all talk about them......mainly because we have never seen one! If you bought a JPE and it was poor compared to an R500 nobody would ever know! How many people have built cars with the same amount of power, copied the spec & colour of a JPE's.....why! Because people always want what they can't have! I expect the R500 would be held in the high esteem had Caterham not decided to sell on bulk. We have all seen R500's in action and they are very good, but like Mclaren F1's how many JPE's do you see in a life time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonym Posted July 13, 2003 Author Share Posted July 13, 2003 What a wonderful read, I did not know they were so rare. I spoke with Caterham used sales and they (very helpful, sorry can't remember his name) says knows of only one JPE for sale and it's the 320bhp turbo example - which is not what I want.. (hmmm maybe I do know what I want..) and most were shipped out to Japan anyway, of the 30(?) that were built. Last one he sold was iirc about 32k - they tend to be priced between 25 to 30k now - I think that's an educated guess since none are available. What does the team know/think? A. Edited by - anthonym on 13 Jul 2003 03:35:46 Edited by - anthonym on 13 Jul 2003 03:36:39 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 If I remember the original wanted ad, the intended use is for the road only, no track use. Makes me feel queasy to read about: do not want to have to worry about a Porsche 944 accelerating with malice when I am halfway past him at high speed, but perhaps not up to my preferred 10-15mph differential. What if you substitute a Porsche 996 or even a turbo. The power escalation could go on and on. As Scuffnut says, 200 usable bhp in a light Seven makes for very swift progress. My own dabblings in the >200 bhp bracket gave me no concern over handling delicacy or usability, but I went to efforts beyond the factory spec to ensure the driving experience was everything I hoped of it. I have no experience of 2.2 JPEs. I have driven Roger Swift's 2.0 litre JP-spec engined car which displayed some very peaky power characteristics (a JPE characteristic). The purebred R500s I have driven have been better than this, but if you saddle them with an airbox and a rear-exit exhaust the power delivery is much less convincing. So in reading this I keep coming back to the desired figure of 260bhp. Why is this important? Factory cars have not been offered with this power level, so you are in the realm of one-offs - very specialised vehicles. I believe Arnie reckons a factory spec JPE makes typically 235bhp rather than a full complement of 250 because of compromises in the inlet manifold. Another point of view is that a fully sorted chassis means you are on the power fully for longer, so you use more of the power available. Where there is nowhere to hide on track this really shows up. On the road, less so. So I wouldn't warn against 250+ bhp on its own account, but I would urge caution in making the right choice of individual vehicle. The bike engined cars will not provide the full-bore acceleration of a true 250-260bhp car-engined Seven, so your overtaking predicament(?) would continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonym Posted July 13, 2003 Author Share Posted July 13, 2003 "queasy" don't worry Peter, I'm well trained over 26 years - last refresher was two days including Millbrook some months ago (in the Seven). Thanks for your concern nevertheless. The joy is that there is always more to learn. If you are a trainer maybe you'd like to do some stuff here in the Alps? I could put you up...trying to think why I recognise your name... If I am making any assumptions it would be that the JPE has the chassis setup to handle the high power in a lightweight vehicle. What do you mean exactly when you say "peaky"? "I want 260bhp" is a euphemism for a car that is the most it can be and suitably modern to boot, so I do not have to and will not want to spend money on upgrading it. The concept is generating all the feedback I could have desired and forming my views as a result. Anthony Obstacles are things one sees when one takes one's eye off the objective. (relax, this is philosophical NOT car roadcraft!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 The queasiness was all to do with the "accelerating with malice". Best thing to do at that stage is accelerate in the opposite direction in my book. Peaky means a definite kick in the back for the last 1000rpm. The last 1000 rpm are phenomenal, but go to show up the lack lustre 7000 preceding rpm. Alll in all the performance is impressive, but I am picky. I appreciate the philosophical intent. My comments are from someone who has "been there" and they differ slightly from Scuffnut's, I think representing the difference between someone expecting the bought item to be "finished" and someone who expected to do a lot of "finishing". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonym Posted July 13, 2003 Author Share Posted July 13, 2003 oh it does irritate me when blatchat loses all we have type cos of a username error! suffice it to say, he was strying I think to keep me out there facing an oncoming car, so slowing didn't seem a good idea at the time. Hence "malice" ho hum. Ant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonym Posted July 14, 2003 Author Share Posted July 14, 2003 oh bugger, there's an R500 in Low Flying for same as the JPE would cost! Point being it looks like a good R500, though I wonder if it is 1,000 miles off an engine refresh. I'll ask them. Whereas the JPE at 5800 I suspect largely track miles may also require resulting attention. I'll have to ask Caterham about that. I can buy the R500 no hassle, engine may need refresh soon or not I can buy the JPE loads of hassle, engine may need refresh (equiv) as suspect not had the service backup in Sydney. Decision point: Both cars go like **** off a shovel. Presumably. 230bhp v 250bhp newer/older... same things seems to me. The weight of each car is much the same as I understand it. 1994 versus 2002 (nearly) 1900 miles versus 5,800 miles (assume both 100% track) sooooooo, seems to me it's a case of which car handles better? Which is more chuckable? Seems to me that the R500 will have 8 years more suspension geometry development. Assuming the R500 is a tintop killer I think it is going to win the day. Assuming it's not sold already. Don't like it's colour mind - and no hood methinks, wonder what box is in it. Wonder what else is available.... this has all been cause by the bad exchange rate increasing my budget and opening a different can of worms. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 According to Arnie the JPE was probably nearer 235bhp (as Peter notes), and Arnie knows his onions on the Vx. So the power differential simply isn't there (despite Vx's being able to give more - you'd ruin "originality"). And whilst the cars *might* weigh the same, it's where the weight is that counts and with a Vx it's more over the front wheels, which isn't necessarily a good thing. That said, I can't think how a JPE would weigh the same as an R500 assuming they both had the same weather gear (or rather aeroscreen etc) as there's little else different - did the JPE have a smaller fuel tank? Maybe but I doubt it. Wheels are within a kg for all 4 on both models etc. The suspension set ups on both cars can be made the same AFAIK, but it might need some chassis work as I think the JPE didn't have the Watts linkage at the rear and might have other subtle differences on the front. I still can't help thinking you're missing the point a bit though Anthony (forgive my directness once more). *Any* 7 will p all over a tin top round corners. And the suspension differences between R500 and JPE will make v.little difference to their straight line poke, which will be very good regardless of which model you choose. Peter's advice of steering clear of nutters in Porsches (or other metal) would be the best advice to take in this respect! Don't rush into anything, try lots of different cars and buy whichever feels the best to you. Alternatively, if you must buy now, get the JPE. They're rarer, and even if they don't handle quite as well I imagine they'll hold their value better than an R500 simply because they are rarer. As a third possibility, if you can afford to hve 2 cars why not buy a Porsche and keep the 7...lots to be said for having two different types of sports car in the fold. Boredom doesn't come into it then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonym Posted July 14, 2003 Author Share Posted July 14, 2003 I have committed to buy the R500. Reason: Chuckability / reliability / support - in that order. Much as I have enjoyed owning classic cars, I know in myself that I want a car to drive, nothing else really comes close to that and the R500 has and is the latest. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Good luck with it Anthony. Awesome cars and the induction noise alone should make your hairs stand on end (I know you come from the Ford fold, but K's can sound fantastic and the R500 I had did - though my SLRish car is better in this respect ). Don't look back now, and stop looking in the "For Sale" sections 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonym Posted July 14, 2003 Author Share Posted July 14, 2003 that's very good advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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