Jason Plato Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 I ( company) have the oportunity to purchase a "oil quality monitor" , the unit works by measuring "polar compounds" . With me being a pieologist , my concern is normally with oxidation levels within fats and oils for our 9 million sausages and 3 million pies per week .......... burp ! ... I'm stuffed !! . But this got me thinking how would oil condition be measured in a race engine and would this instrument be of any potential use ???? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheds Moderator Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Hi, I'm a foody too, I know the machine you are talking about. It works by measuring the overall polarity of the oils, usually ex frying, since the triglycerides break down to leave free fatty acids (aka long chain carboxylic acids, obviously very polar) and di/mono glygerides plus glycerol. I dunno how far down the process it goes upon cooking, fats and oils isn't really my specialism, but that's the basic chemistry. Now then, how useful is this machine? Well, it works OK in the food frying industry IF you calibrate the instrument against known, recognised chemical analyses, such that you get a classical calibration curve, in this way you establish that "reading 5" on the machine equals a PV of 15 or a FFA of 2%, and this is established as your agreed limit. Obviously these limits are typical for frying oil, they do not apply to fats and oils used as baking ingredients. In addition anything with a significant water content will have massive amounts of polar compounds (water...) so this will interfere with your figure. Different cal curve applies for these types of fats/oils. Ok, is this thing useful for engine oil? In short, no, since engine oil is not a triglyceride. It might conceivably gain polar compounds over use, with modern synthetics, of which I know nothing at a chemical level, it might equally well lose them. There is however some sort of instrument in use, I know at one time you could send samples of oil to Castrol and they would analyse it for contaminants, carbon, antifreeze, and tell you a bit about the state of your engine. This however will be based on a different chemistry, I suspect GLC/GC-MS technology. Which factory are you at? Bowyers by any chance? I'm ex Northern Foods but the scars are healing OK now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R2D2 Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Aero engines use chip (no not deep fried types) detectors in the oil stream to try to look for small amounts of debris and avoid major engine failures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted July 9, 2003 Author Share Posted July 9, 2003 Appreciate your points Battteredold' , I was realy wonder how engine oil could be monitored not realy if this machine would be suitable as I guessed it would measure FFA's ........ if you follow The thing that has always struck me is that many people change the engine oil - normally a very high quality oil , such as mobil 1 or Comma G , every trackday or maybe every 3000 miles . But is this realy required ??? and how could this be determined by the amature driver ? . Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick M Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Something I've come across here in the US (and it's probably available at home too, I've just not seen it advertised) is an oil analysis service. Basically you send off a sample of oil and they tell you what's floating about in it. Different metals or compounds (and the amounts) are supposed to indicate wear of different components like bearings, valve guides, bores, etc., etc. HOWEVER, someone also said (on here I believe) that this is all well and good but basically the first time you get it done it will scare the willies out of you and might lead you to strip down an otherwise perfectly healthy engine ! 😬 I was thinking of getting it done purely for the sake of curiousity (it works out at about $30) but I just haven't got round to it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanT Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Don't some modern cars have the capability to monitor the "quality" of the engine oil and use that as one of the parameters for determing service intervals? Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Perry Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 I think all the main oil companies offer this, but its not that cheap, so not really cost effective for a car . Its mainly organisations with safety critical equipment that use it and those that have engines with large oil sumps where a significant outlay in time and money is involved with an oil change. Anyone who has visited an F1 pitlane will see the Shell truck that does this service for Ferrari, so that they know whether to change Michaels or Rubens engine as a precaution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 I used to get my oil analysed after every race by Castrol. I would get a report back which had either a green, orange or red band plus details of all the metals, hydrocarbons etc. in the oil. At the time we were developing an air cooled engine to well beyond it's original design expectations. The oil analysis helped not only to see what engine parts were wearing (we had big end shell wear and ring to nikasil incompatability problems) but ultimately helped us select the correct oil for the engine. As we were sponsored by Castrol the oil and backup were free so I have no idea what it would cost to have done. I change the oil in my car every 3,000 miles. If I pull the dipstick and the oil looks dirty as if it has had a hard life, I change it sooner. Oil is much cheaper than engine re-builds. AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordy Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 unfortunately haven't got time for a lengthy post explaining oil analysis and condition monitoring techniques. But if anyone genuinely wants to have a chat, ring me on 01268 406719. I am an engine oil and analysis expert working for a large Automotive company so I know a fair bit on this subject...... (Have to go out for a blat right now in the seven - turned the freezer off this morning and forgot to turn it back on again before I left DOH! - so don't call before 1.00pm) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 If I use one of these machines will I be able to fill the sump with Mazola? Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheds Moderator Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 😬 don't use it for your chips afterwards. You can anyway, though its ability to keep the moving parts moving is, erm, limited. It would be interesting to see how long an engine would last on Mazola, my guess is with regular changes about 20k between desludges. Not in a highly tuned application, only a cooking engine, natch. I'll get my coat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Perry Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 Fordy, If you could give us a laymans summary of the state of the art without revealing any trade secrets I think a few on here would be interested. I know one major oil company was developing a well publicised truck engine lubrication Oil filtration system that was designed to go 250,000 miles (yes indeed) between oil changes. But its gone very quiet on that front lately so I guess it didn't work as planned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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