StephaneM Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Hello, I have many problems with my engine (injected VX) wich was fitted with an unstandard Magnetti Marelli ECU We don't succed to have it usable in road condition. I think I will change this mess & go for an engine kit with a new ECU (& more power ... 😬 I hesitate between: - SBD TP208 kit (throttle bodies): 1680£ - QED Q42H/C (Weber DCOE: 1295£) or Q42H/I (throttle bodies: 1695£) SBD promises 208bhp & QED promises between 190 to 205bhp. It's interesting to note that there are camshafts in the Qed kits while SBD doesn't supply some. Regarding that, Is it true to think that perhaps SBD is optimistic? Do you have opinions about SBD or QED kits? or others? Is it easy to fit alone? Thanks in advance Stéphane in France '95 injected VX, modifications in progress... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 I think Arnie is the man to answer this question ! C7 PWT Pure Steel XE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Don't listen to Arnie, he's bitter and twisted about SBD, he had a bad experience with them once and has been slagging them off ever since. I had SBD's 208bhp kit and it's the dogs danglers. I don't think it will make 208 bhp except under the most ideal conditions, eg you'd need a big bore 4 into 1 exhaust when most people would still be running a standard Caterham exhaust etc etc. But it does make good power and it's very driveable, no comparison with a carb kit. Another advantage of SBD's kit is that you can use the same throttle bodies from 208bhp right up to the top of the range 290bhp kit. So you can add cams next year, forged piston and steel rods the year after etc etc without throwing away the 208bhp throttle bodies and upgrading to bigger ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 "he's bitter and twisted about SBD, he had a bad experience with them once and has been slagging them off ever since." Yes..................................... but be fair, a rod through the block of an expensive engine is hardly the kind of thing you forget overnight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian balson Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Stephane, You could also contact Swindon Racing Engineering as another alternative, they also supply upgrade kits. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Stephane You have mail Kind regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Stephane, I have a set of Jenvey SF 48mm throttle bodies (these are what is in the SBD kit) with manifold, fule rail, injectors (not in the SBD kit), linkage, ITG air filter (not in the SBD kit), throttle pot, MBE ECU, engine loom for a Caterham and mapped with the SBD 208 map all for £1400 Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM website See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephaneM Posted July 2, 2003 Author Share Posted July 2, 2003 Arnie, you have mail But regarding upgrade possibility, it seems to be the case also regarding QED (I have the cataloque & it's the same base also from 190-205 to ~280bhp). Any opinion, about facility ti install one of these "basic" kit alone? If I'm "reasonnable" regarding revs, will it be OK with all my standard engine (but dry sump in 3 ou 4 months just to wait money 😬 to do it!)? Thanks in advance. Stéphane in France '95 injected VX, modifications in progress... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Foster Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Both of those kits will have the rev limiter set appropriately, so revs won't kill the engine. Certainly the SBD kit (I have it) includes ARP Rod Bolts so the rev limit (7750rpm) is perfectly OK. Dry sump is needed (well I have one anyway) to stop oil surge which is related to extended periods of extreme braking / cornering which you would only experience on tracks - so if you're only using the car on the road a baffled sump would be OK. I have all the SBD kit (208kit, SBD exhaust + can, SBD dry sump kit with twin scavenge, blanked of breathers, ITG air filter sausage) and I doubt I get 208Bhp, but I have no doubt it's *around* the 200 mark even without the cam. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjc Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Would'nt it make sense to get the engine working properly before spending loads on an upgrade ? I spent a good £2500 (ish) upgrading my VX when a £50 set of chokes and jets for the carbs and £600 for a 3D mapped ignition would have transformed the car. Most people go for Emerald, DTA or MBE 3d ignition kits for the VX. A MBE 917i kit has turned my car fom a disaster area to a reliable runabout so I'd fit one of these first. Then check the fuelling (assuming you're on carbs) and then see how you get on. you may well find that you've got more than enough oomph! from a well tuned well sorted standard engine. At least for starters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephaneM Posted July 3, 2003 Author Share Posted July 3, 2003 It's a fact that original bhp level should be enough at the beginning, & it would be better to spend money in a dry sump kit (I will use car on track). It was what I plan: install the dry sump in 2 or 3 months, & perhaps the kit next winter, if needed.... But my car is still in the garage with this engine tunning problem: I miss ignition on one cylinder, it's very hard to start the engine (when hot quite impossible), I have this fu..ing Magnetti Marelli ECU, the butterfly area is modified (too high: it touch the bonnet, so deformation)... I didn"t think about these problems. I bought a racing car with a broken engine + a second hand engine block. We opened & prepared carefully the inside of this block, but I would prefer pay some £ to buy the kit, install it alone & turn the key (I wait for 4 months )instead of pay the garage to try to have it working (33£ per hour)... I'm very confident about the rest of the engine. That's the reason about my thinking about a complete kit... '95 injected VX, modifications in progress... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Whatever you do, if you intend to race the car someday, don´t go for the SBD dry-sump system. I´ve fitted one to my engine and obviuosly due to missing cooling fins on the bottom of the sump engine temperatures reach 135°C++ (oil) within 4 quick laps at Spa-Francorchamps (a circuit where you use most of the rev-range all round), even when being equipped with an additional oil-cooler. A same spec engine WITHOUT oil-cooler only saw a max. of 108°C in the same race, equipped with the "original" caterham dry sump setup. I´ll definitly ditch the SBD-dry-sump over winter and go the original Caterham route then. A bit more expensive but less hassle in the long term. I had to let go three competitors due to the high oil-temps and finished only 7th instead of 4th.... 🙆🏻 Marius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 At least your rods stayed in your block ❗ Bummer anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelw Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 I have an SBD engine with a Caterham dry sump (resevior in the bell housing) and the oil temperature never gets above the water temperature i.e. 89 - 92 degrees even on track days. The engine is a "standard build" (about 180BHP I think) and running 45 dellortos. Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Its important to realise a couple of things here. Oil temp at the bellhosing will always be 10 to 20 degrees down on the oil temp at the bearings. On a remote tank setup it is possibly even more ans the tanks conductivity is improved by not being bolted to an iron block. Marius, if you are getting 135 degrees at the tank somthing is very wrong. If you are getting 135 degrees from a probe within the crankcase this is not so bad. My oil temp is measured at the crankcase and on a hard track session will hit 120 - 125 dgerees. Not a problem at this level or even 135 degrees as the oil viscosity is meansured at 140 degrees I believe. Turbo cars tend to run much higher oil temps for example on my S4 othe oil temp gauge is NOT "IN THE RED" until temp exceeds 160 degrees. Also be aware that the temp sender and gauge should be a matched pair - I'm not sure what instrumentation your car has..... this would definately give a mis-read. Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM website See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Arnie, YHM. Don´t want to hijack the topic. Marius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjc Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 I remember when we fitted the engine to a fellow hillclimber's caterham the injection system backplate and bubble foam filter was too big for the opening. A quck 'ARRRGHHHHHHH' moment with the tin snips soon sorted the problem (Although he later had a proper job done on a new bonnet). Just because it fouls the standard bonnet don't mean it's wrong. I can sympathise so very, very much indeed with the frustrations of not having a reliable car. I repeat to you, as someone who spent nigh on 2 years farting about, limping from one setback to another, that the best thing is to get it working well and reliably first, even if it means taking it to a garage and having it done for you. Then decide on upgrades once you have a true feel for the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephaneM Posted July 3, 2003 Author Share Posted July 3, 2003 The problem is that I come from a non standard basis... I would have to buy standard parts, & perhaps to buy a kit in few months... If the assy & use of the kit is safe & easy, it is a less expensive way at the end... (I train explainations for my wife 😬 😬) Cheers Stéphane in France '95 injected VX, modifications in progress... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjc Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 O' La, La, Stephane !, J'ai pense que Vous et ' tombe dans l'amour' avec L'idee d'un kit ! C'est la vie ! Bon Travillei et remettre moi avec l'histoire de votre travallie si'l vous plait. Et aussi, excuse moi pour ma Francaise, elle est terrible. Au revoir (pour le moment) Rowland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmandsd Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 Sod the upgrade Stephane - stick to carbs - 45's not 48's though. A good friend of mine who i've been racing with for many years has a standard albeit old spec 2.0lt vx on 45's and it's quick running 12.83 @ 108 mph at the Brighton Speed Trials last year. His engine shows a genuine 175 bhp at the flywheel on Sanspeeds rolling road and the car weighs over 500 kgs (He weighs 19 stone aswell !). I don't believe for one moment that the SBD 208 kit has 208 bhp or anywhere near it for that matter. In fact the same guy as referred to above used to have the same vx in a Nova and raced a similar car with the 208 kit. My friend's car was not only consistently quicker but also faster with as much as 5mph additional terminal speed - which is a very clear power indicator. Then there's James Saunders with his 2lt vx Caterham who uses 48's on a tuned engine base which is showing some really healthy power and torque figures which he's backing up by his times/speeds at the drag strip. Ultimately fuel injection is better than carbs but you need to spend a lot of time and money selecting the best set up for your car. On a standard engine I really don't think it's worthwhile especially considering a pair of 45's give you an extra 25 bhp in any event. I was only pursuaded to go fuel injection as a result of being offered a genuine Cosworth Efi slide including the original steel trumpets which were developed especially for the BD. I then matched this to a top of the range ECU and had the whole lot set up by someone who specialises in Motec - This is another important factor in getting the best out of the system you choose. If I haven't pursuaded you and you still want to go injection then tune the rest of your engine to get the most out of the system and only use a 'sequential' injection set up. I originally tied a Lumenition wasted spark set up and it gave a lot less power than carbs with dreadful fuel standoff. Home of BDR700 Edited by - edmandsd on 5 Jul 2003 12:10:03 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 Dave, Most of what you have written above is very likley approprate to the way you use your car, but lets face it, your car abd your usage are unusual. Decent throttle bodies (unlike those made by Luminition) will offer much better road and track performance as they car be calibrated so much more accuretely than any carburettor - since when for example was a carbutettor able to meter fueling against rpm?? You might also be interested to know that Stephanes car already runs OEM GM injection and that any VX 16V in a good state of health on corretly jetted 45's will give 175bbhp. Indeed on 48's they give 185bhp as per VX racer spec in the 90's. Having upgraded by car from its twin 45's setup to Jenvey SF throttle bodies (albeit the head was ported and it was running 302 degree cams) it was infinitely better than it ever was on carbs - and whilst on carbs no less than 3 rolling roads tried to get it to run properly. Also when on carbs the best it ever made was 208bhp - with SF's it was up to 245bhp out of the box. Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM website See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmandsd Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 My carb experiences were with road going cars Arnie. I totally accept your point re calibration but one needs to consider the real value of that improvement because on a standard engine it's not going to be significant. Even with the most sophisticated ECU you're not going to iron out flat spots on an engine that are caused by the exhaust or cams eg My engine is slightly flat at circa 6,000 rpm with both carbs and injection. I know I can change my exhaust cam to get rid of it but this would more than compromise the 8,750 - 9,500 range. I could never understand why the Caterham racers used 48's as i'd seen more than one back to back test where the 45's gave so much more power throughout the midrange making any marginal top end increases worthless. In fact the guy I referred to earlier had 48's originally and said that junking them for 45's was the best move he'd ever made in terms of his times/speed on the drag strip. This was a daily driven car as is James'. Home of BDR700 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 I hate to admitt but in this case I have to second Arnies comments. I´ve come the Carb-route myself and never looked back after fitting the Jenvey TB´s. In my eyes the basic element in search for power. There are a few really quick carbed VX´s around (the Steward car..) but in search for ultimate power and driveability there´s only one way to go. My opinion though... Marius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 I´m also using the car 50% track, 50% road. Marius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss_Tony Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 So whats wrong with carbs then? (Ducks and runs for cover) James Su77on Se7ens Edited by - james on 5 Jul 2003 18:49:02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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