mav Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 I recently posted on another forum: I've recently fitted a Laminova to combat 'high' oil temp, that was causing low oil pressure on track or road. Fitting the laminova has stabilised the oil on long runs at just over 80 deg, and water temp is the same. on track, the oil now only rises to 90 - 95 deg and the water stays at 80 - 85. I have changed the stat to an 82 deg jobbie too The reply from after sales ( Caterham) was: We do not consider it necessary to fit an oil cooler to a standard Seven below the R500 / race car levels. In doing so you are rejecting more heat into the cooling system, which is more likely to create problems than 'high' oil temperatures. Remember - if it was prudent to fit coolers to track day cars, we'd be flogging them and I would be making money - but we aren't. My advice would be to not fit an oil cooler - it isn't necessary and may actually do more harm than good. Anyone care to add to this debate? Edited by - mav on 22 Jun 2003 19:12:00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smegnoguk Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Spoil sports! Who's looking at the Ferrari? Nobody, that's who! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bare Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Oh I dunno... Hondas, At least here in the States, all come with a Water/oil cooler fitted. Millions are so fitted, with no apparent problems. The intended Purpose being to bring the Oil up to temp quicker AND then stabilise the Temps..it Works. Mebe you should'nt do business with your quoted source :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Hi Mav Nice chatting at MIRA...... thanks again for the suntan lotion Well I have a standard oil cooler and bypass thermostat before the cooler in the oil lines. All cheep well except the Aeroquip connectors connectors send you a photo if you like. There are cheaper options Aeroquip connectors. Oil filter mounted just below the carbs WELL out of harms way. 😬 😬 😬 'Can you hear me running' ......... OH YES and its music to my ears 😬 😬 😬 1988 200 bhp, 146 ft lbs, 1700cc Cosworth BD? on Weber's with Brooklands and Clamshell wings, Freestyle Motorsport suspension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick M Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Where is the oil temp measured ? I have my temp sensor in an external dry sump tank and the peak oil temperature I've seen when running hard on a hot (30+ celcius) day was 115 degrees. However, this bothered me not in the slightest because I was told by the tech department of the oil company whose products I was using that the oil will happily run at 150degrees for short periods of time and that a constant 130-135 degrees was perfectly acceptable, although I would probably notice a reduction in oil pressure (which I did at 115 degrees - about 5psi at peak). I have fitted an oil cooler but that's largely to add some additional volume to the system, not because I'm worried about the temps per se. In fact I'm not sure how much cooling effect the cooler produces because the only place I could easily locate it is quite shielded. To be honest, at temps of around 90-95 (depending on where they're being measured of course) I wouldn't be inclined to worry too much. Incidentally, my coolant temps were pretty stable too - I think I've only once seen it creep over 100degrees (and then the coolant temp sensor died 😬 ) but normal (on road) running temp is about 80 degrees for water and 80-85 for the oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Hi Nick Your missing the point. Its not all about HOT its more about getting the oil up to best operating temperature as FAST as possible after that the oil cooler comes into play. Oil temperatures are initially much lower than the water temperature until you have done say 30 road miles. That's in summer. In my car in Winter doupt the cooler ever sees any flow. Fitting a bypass thermostat is about keeping an optimised temperature rather than over cooling. That = longer engine life. Its not measured by a stat its an all in one auto bit of kit. Oil coolers are for track days and very fast blats in the Sun. Say yesterday long high speed motorway run the sprint irrelevant at MIRA that's more trying to get the oil up to getting the oil up to temperatures more important. Doupt any oil on a run Saturday ever went though the coil. Now if it was a track day then after say 3 laps the cooler would see some or all of the flow. See http://www.thinkauto.com/ then products then oilstats mines the top left or right in the pictures. So sometimes on the track the coolers are needed other times its more a wear item than a benefit. 'Can you hear me running' ......... OH YES and its music to my ears 😬 😬 😬 1988 200 bhp, 146 ft lbs, 1700cc Cosworth BD? on Weber's with Brooklands and Clamshell wings, Freestyle Motorsport suspension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav Posted June 22, 2003 Author Share Posted June 22, 2003 Nick, My oil temp is taken from the apollo tank. Oil pressure was dropping enough to worry me on track when the oil was getting up to 110 - 120 degrees. Bilbo, good to chat to you yesterday. Glad to help on the sun front . The Laminova is fitted to acheive qiucker warming of the oil, and to provide additional coon=ing on track. Cheers Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Hi Mav Yesterday my oil pressure was spot on all day. In fact it was ott due for an oil change but never found the time still last years oil but then not a lot of mileage 😳 So why is the expensively is Laminova so great I added the thermostat at the last rebuild year 2000 Going off line its now time to eat going off line 'Can you hear me running' ......... OH YES and its music to my ears 😬 😬 😬 1988 200 bhp, 146 ft lbs, 1700cc Cosworth BD? on Weber's with Brooklands and Clamshell wings, Freestyle Motorsport suspension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe 90 Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Adding an oil cooler (with thermostat) will increase the total cooling capacity of the engine (provided the oil cooler and radiator get separate air flows!). A Laminova will redistribute cooling capacity between the oil and water systems. If the Laminova does what you need, i.e. decrease peak oil temps without raising water temp, then you're sorted. If you have a different problem, you may need a different solution. Given the different states of tune and driving styles, it's a bit presumptuous to rubbish someone elses solution. Crash team to the Upgradeitis ward, the withdrawal symptons are getting worse ❗ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 There is only one efficient place to lose heat from the engine bay and that is at the nose of the car. That is why air/oil heat exchangers are mounted at the nose, usually compromising the already extant water radiator. The Laminova moves the heat into the single circuit where it can be dissipated into the airflow most efficiently. It is also thermostatically controlled, maintaining the oil temperature suitably. If Caterham don't think wet sumped K-series engines have oil temperature problems then they should be talking to the people I talk to and open their eyes a bit and wonder how come the oil temperature on a wet sump car gets easily to 110 degrees plus while dry sumped cars see 80 or thereabouts. "More harm than good"? Oh please, start acting like you have an ounce of engineering nous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Peterson Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Does using sythetic (Mobil 1) improve your high temp lubrication? One would assume that using a 0 w 40 or 5 w 50 would improve your low temp lubrication because of improved flow rates. Awaiting enlightenment No officer, the wheel is on the RIGHT side. Red Super Sprint De Dion 6 speed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick M Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Its not all about HOT its more about getting the oil up to best operating temperature as FAST as possible after that the oil cooler comes into play. Oil temperatures are initially much lower than the water temperature until you have done say 30 road miles. That's in summer. In my car in Winter doupt the cooler ever sees any flow. Fitting a bypass thermostat is about keeping an optimised temperature rather than over cooling. That = longer engine life. I must say I've not noticed my oil temps taking that long to rise but, to be fair, it is a little warmer here than sunny old England 😬 Even so, it never took 30 miles to get the oil up to a sensible temperature so maybe it's a product of different engines ?? My oil temp is taken from the apollo tank. Oil pressure was dropping enough to worry me on track when the oil was getting up to 110 - 120 degrees Ah, I wasn't sure how hot it was getting before, just how hot it was getting post laminova thingy being fitted. And I agree, at those sort of temps I'd be looking for an oil cooler of some description (which is why I have one I suppose 😬) As mentioned, I observed a reduction in oil pressure when the oil gets hotter but not enough to worry about. Again, different engine / dry sump set ups will do different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Oil temps > 110C or even upto 150C may be fine for the oil when tested in a laboratory , but the rubber seals and gaskets in your engine wont like it very much . Laminovas are fine for road work , providing you have sufficient capacity to absorb the additional heat into the water cooling system . For track work I would prefer a air/oil cooler with thermostat as I wouldnt wish to place further load on the water cooling system . Its each to their own on this one and it depends what capacity you have "spare" in the water cooling sysytem and if you are dry or wet sump . Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Support Team Shaun_E Posted June 23, 2003 Support Team Share Posted June 23, 2003 If you fit a Laminova oil/water heat exchanger then you are obviously dumping more heat into the cooling system. If you then get a more efficient radiator then it should cope with that extra heat. The question is - what are the options for a new radiator. I have a Superlight but it is fitted with a standard (black) radiator which has seen better days (some of the fins are a bit crumbly now!). Which is the best choice of radiator to increase heat dissipation? Caterham sell an ali road radiator and a triple pass race radiator - which of these would be best for road and track driving? Is the Radtec radiator better (more efficient) and how much is it? I have experienced water temperatures of 107 (on road and track) and oil temperatures of 120 on track and would like to reduce these just for peace of mind. Shaun Yellow SL #32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 I can't find anyway to understand Caterham's point of view in these circumstances other than them being ****ed off that we (ie the sevens community / third party suppliers) having the idea and sense to rectify a problem before they did... *mad* With a PACE dry sump and laminova mine all seems perfectly happy now. the thermostat controls the temperature of everything, no thermal shocks, oil temp peaks in temp smoothed out, oil pressure always happy (and easy to control with the regulator screw on the pump). Only possible thing left to do is the QED remote thermostat so it acts on the temperature after the engine rather than before... HOOPY R706KGU Hoopylight R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Also - fitting the laminova does add more load to the coolint system - you're just transferring the heat through the laminova instead of the block. hence less thermal stress, faster equilibrium of tempertures etc. And if you have a decent rad (ie not the 6 tonne black painted things) then it copes easily. HOOPY R706KGU Hoopylight R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Support Team Shaun_E Posted June 23, 2003 Support Team Share Posted June 23, 2003 Hoopy, What radiator are you using? I am thinking of fitting a Laminova but I also need to address the high water temperatures so need a recommendation for a new radiator. Shaun Yellow SL #32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Caterham race rad with the big fan on the front (needs a relay to drive it) HOOPY R706KGU Hoopylight R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr toad Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Can someone tell me if I have the same problem. Bought the car a couple of weeks ago, did a trackday at Goodwood the following day, have observed the following: running gently (ie. in traffic) - oil temp sits at 80-90 going hard (ie. on road, out of traffic) - temp can get over 100 on track (trying hard anyway!) - definitely over 100 / 105 ish, after which I was short-changing in 4th and 5th The car (1.6 Superlight) has 8k miles and is standard spec, having an anti-cav tank; I tend to leave it running until the oil /water temp has setlled to nearer 80. Is this normal? Is it likely to cause any damage? What are the best solutions - cheapest and most effective? many many thanks the toad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Support Team Shaun_E Posted June 23, 2003 Support Team Share Posted June 23, 2003 Mr Toad I wouldn't worry about those temperatures - they seem fairly normal. I have had 115-120 degree oil temperatures on track which I don't want to maintain for any period of time hence the desire to fit an oil/water heat exchanger (Laminova). I frequently get oil temperatures over a 100 on a long blat. Shaun Yellow SL #32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 they sound normal as stated. they are probably due to a bit of windage caused by the sump being so shallow. a dry sump would "cure" it but its not a problem. HOOPY R706KGU Hoopylight R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Hi Nick In posting 30 miles I was thinking more about winter and slower driving that's to say not track days or fast road. Actually when I used the car in winter on very cold its taken say 1-2 miles before the water thermostats even opened. You can tell when that happens as the temperature gauge drops a few degrees even more in winter. Another 3-4 miles before the water is up to temperature. Then the oil really starts to heat, with the coil on line all the time it has to take a lot more miles. This was the main reason I fitted the bypass around the cooler. Being dry sumped its all in the tank that actually gives just a tad more cooling on start up as the oil is only briefly in the warming engine. I am quite sure about the mileage as when I worked locally it was 6 miles each way every day in winter, the car was barely up to temperature when I arrived. I cured this by the stick a bit of cardboard between the oil cooler and the rad. Some days it never did get up to temperature. When the weather man says wind chill factor -15 degrees C that's what the engine thinks as well not really correct but a fair modelling. Still it is a MUCH bigger radiator than the K series also the engine holds more water. The hose connections are also a lot bigger. Think the K series holds less than half the amount of water in the block, very small waterways. If you seen one with the head off the amount of err metal is very minimal and the engine achieves lots of cooling from this fact. No big cast iron heat sink, my AX being the heaviest block. You also need to consider that engine mass... that takes more heating than the K series. My oil system contains more oil than the k series particularly those with the dry sump tank in the bellhousing. To be fair the comments on mileage were when I had a heater and was using it as it was say 2 to -5 degrees C it now warms a bit quicker. Also tends to stay in the garage when its that cold. 😬 I am not knocking the Laminovas system anything that heats the oil up quicker is a plus. 😬 'Can you hear me running' ......... OH YES and its music to my ears 😬 😬 😬 1988 200 bhp, 146 ft lbs, 1700cc Cosworth BD? on Weber's with Brooklands and Clamshell wings, Freestyle Motorsport suspension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Hi Dave J I agree with you post. One thing you missed was if the oils that hot and thin or getting thinner its more likly to blow past the piston rings and foul the plugs. 'Can you hear me running' ......... OH YES and its music to my ears 😬 😬 😬 1988 200 bhp, 146 ft lbs, 1700cc Cosworth BD? on Weber's with Brooklands and Clamshell wings, Freestyle Motorsport suspension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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