MOT failure

[captain chaos]

My car, has just failed it's first MOT because it has no side repeaters (indicators). Some 7's have them on the cycle wings which i feel is not that attractive. is my MOT man being overly pedantic and might I get a pass elsewhere? or, if the advice is to get some fitted have others found more cosmetically pleasing locations.

I don't really want the bloody things anywhere? I might just do something temporary.

Comments please.

[aideen]

Best bet is to find a Seven-friendly MOT place (i.e. they've done a few before). I worried about this before my car's first MOT last year but in the end there was no problem. I tried asking a few MOT places if the car would need repeaters - they all scratched their heads, looked in the manual and said "Yes". So whatever you do, don't mention them!

 

Aideen

 

[I.Mupferit]

I have heard of a guy who had a similar problem and simply wired in temporary repeaters (with a push in connector for future MOTS) and stuck them on with double sided tape. Irritating to have to do that though.

[aideen]

PS An alternative is to fit "flat" repeaters on the side of the car. See V7 SLR here (near the bottom of the page)

 

Edited by - aideen on 26 Jan 2001 12:36:39

[Drumster]

My car, 1993 reg with cycle wings, has just passed its MOT without any side repeaters. As I understand it if they are not there they can't be tested. (or maybe Chris at the 7 Workshop just took it to a 'friendly' MOT station.

 

Chris Alston

[Mike Bees]

The "not there so can't be tested" argument doesn't apply to everything (unfortunately). "Test the brakes? I haven't got any, so we don't need to." smile.gif

 

Mike

[FH]

CC - Our cycle-winged 1600 SS has been through a couple of MOT's. No on-wing indicators fitted - no problem.biggrin.gif We normally get Caterham to do it, using their local MOT place at the same time as the service. If that's too far away, follow Aideen's advice.

 

Basically, to my knowledge, if it ain't fitted at the time of construction, they can't check it. viz semaphore indicators on older cars, spare wheels etc. smile.gif

[gee_fin]

Yes, I think it's possibly age related. If your car was built before a certain date you don't need them. Not certain of 'the date' though I'm afraid.....

_______________________________

www.fluke-motorsport.co.uk

 

[captain chaos]

Thanks for the replies, more comments are welcome.

The Car is a '97 Vx and the MOT was failed by the man who built it, the famed hillclimber/sprinter, 'Clive kenrick'.

 

I was hoping for a little latitude on the issue, what with his Caterham connections and competitive spirit, alas, it was not to be.

[CHRIS CLARK]

I have to say that I thought the (Mondeo ?) side repeaters actually fitted to the side of a W.......d at the Autosport show were rather neat.

AAAGH

[captain chaos]

Ideally they need to be surface mounted to make the potential location alot easier. i understand alot of the modern day units are quite deep and protrude along way into the space behind the panel.

[Paul D Jones]

The Westfeild has a space between the alloy and the outer glass body about 2" but shouldn't the light fit into the engine bay side of the bulkhead so it should fit or are Caterhams that narrow and tight for space? againts the exhaust/carbs etc

 

paul

[Hurdsey]

my wifes 1993 clio recently hed the side repeater indicators nicked!!!! mad.gif just before the mot was done, when the tester mentioned to her it would be a fail she said "surely they only have to work if they are there" she passed biggrin.gif.

On my 2000 registered W E S T F I E L D have the flat mondeo ones fitted and as Chris has said they do look neat tongue.gif

[EFA]

OK, The LAW on this matter is cars built after 1982 have to have front indicators with a certain E number moulded on the lens, which signifies that they are 'wrap around'

 

As the Caterham front indicators do not have this number (they do have an E number, but its the wrong one) you MUST by law have side repeaters. This is the case whether the car was fitted with them when new (or when supplied as a kit) or not.

 

The workarounds are as follows:

 

Run two leads from each of the end connectors on the indicator switch, from trhe dash to each side of the car where the footwells are, at the top of the side panels.

 

Run two other leads one to each side of the car with the other end grounded

 

Buy two cheap side repeaters and connect to the two wires on each side of the car, havcing mounted them through a piece of ally or plastic approx 70 x 30mm.

 

Stick using a double sided adhesive pad the ally plate with the side rep4eater attached using to the top surface of the chassis rail where the side panel is compressed between chassis rail and bottom retuen on bonnet. Leave wires on show deliberately.

 

Go back to MOT centre, collect MOT an dremove side repeaters while still on their site. Thank them for wasting yours and their time.

 

Redline Components have this item ready made that you might be able to borrow if you grovel a lot. I used it and passed.

 

As an alternative you can go to a different MOT centre. I normally do this when I get hassle about my lack of handbrake, and the side repeaters as well.

 

 

 

 

Arnie Webb

Organiser- L7C Le Mans Trip

To book for this years Le Mans Trip see The Le Mans Trip Website

It really is very very very very full now!!!

[captain chaos]

Arnie,

once again, thanks.

PS How much should I expect to pay for that exhaust from BTB?

thumbsup.gif

[EFA]

Remind me again......

 

Arnie Webb

Organiser- L7C Le Mans Trip

To book for this years Le Mans Trip see The Le Mans Trip Website

It really is very very very very full now!!!

[captain chaos]

I sent you a spec of my engine and you felt the 2.5 collector on the exhaust may restrict the bhp to around 240. To improve I needed 3" (the wife would agree!) and recommended I contact BTB. How much? and will they have a pattern to make from?

 

thanks

[EFA]

The collector mode shoudl cost around £50 as its a simple job that does not require a jig.

 

For the silencer I used to sell the carbon ones for about £500 inc vat, and these wer jigged for the Caterham collector position and rear bracket.

 

I guess if BTB make you one, it wil be a one off in terms of brackets etc. so expect to pay a little more.....

 

AW

 

Arnie Webb

Organiser- L7C Le Mans Trip

To book for this years Le Mans Trip see The Le Mans Trip Website

It really is very very very very full now!!!

[Taran Las]

Had the same repeater problem last year. MOT station had had this problem a number of times and contacted the Ministry of Transport for clarification, As Arnnie says they MUST be fitted to vehicles after a certain date (thought it was 1989 - but bow to superior knowledge). They also contacted Caterham and they admitted they had been supplying vehicles without side repeaters after this date. I was advised to purchase repeaters from Demon Tweeks, run the cable down the wing support(run wire down the back of the support as it will chaff if buffeted) and connect to the indicator wires. Relay is more than capable of handling the extra load. Another suggestion was to fit them in the triangle at the base of the screen. (only useful if you don't have a battery cut off switch installed). Having the repeaters on the cycle wings satisfied the MOT requirements and also serves the useful purpose of reminding me to switch them off after use as they are now clearly visible.

 

Phil Owen.

[Mike Bees]

We're off the original thread topic a bit, but my engine makes over 230bhp on the original Caterham 4-1 exhaust with 1.5in primaries and 2in collector output/silencer through-pipe.

 

Mike

[Matt Prior]

 

I just wondered this: if Caterham was supplying cars without indicator repeaters when it was in fact legally obliged to do so, should the company not recall these flared-wing Sevens for modification at its own expense?

 

After all, Ducati had to issue a recall because it didn't put KPH markings on UK bikes' odometers.

 

And say I'd been driving a Seven and another drivers' failure to see my indicator resulted in an accident, where would I, and the company, stand then? Just who would be to blame for my illegal motor car and, therefore, invalid insurance?

 

Can o'worms. Try another MOT centre.

 

[captain chaos]

thanks for all your comments/help.

 

Mike,

my engine should be capable of producing around 250bhp but Arnie felt from his experience the caterham vx race exhaust would limit that to 240bhp. He also felt a system with a 3" collector might actually liberate a bit more.

 

Edited by - captain chaos on 30 Jan 2001 19:39:08

[David Morris]

Hi Captain Chaos,

 

As discussed on Tuesday evening we really think you wouldnt have this problem with an R500!!!

[captain chaos]

Hello Dave!

I was wondering who would be first...you or Jez!

Atleast give me a chance to drive the Vx firstsmile.gif I've had it 5 months and still only done 1000 miles and most of them was driving to the ring only to breakdown in Brussels!

[Peter Carmichael]

Theories about exhaust design are legion. Here's how I think about it, expressed as colloquially as I think I can get away with.

 

4 cylinder. 4 stroke. Exhaust activity in the same order as the firing cycle. One pulse at a time. The power comes from how much new, cool charge you trap in the cylinder each second. Torque comes from how much new, cool charge you trap in the cylinder each cycle. The exhaust design decides how empty the cylinder is for the next cycle. One pulse at a time. A pulse contains the complete net charge from the cylinder.

 

If a pulse fits down a 1 5/8 inch primary without hanging about, the same pulse is going to gush through a bigger diameter collector without touching the sides.

 

This has been a consideration of straightforward resistance to flow in a pipe.

 

There is a second effect. The pulse is made up of elastic compressible gas. The gas only starts flowing in response to pressure gradients and the flow redistributes the pressure gradients. There are pressure waves in the gas flow and they travel at the speed of sound. The speed of sound in an ideal gas is a function of its temperature.

 

When the exhaust valve opens, the cylinder contains the high pressure gas. The exhuast primary contains the remnants of the last charge at some pressure, not necessarily much different from atmospheric. The high pressure surge past the valve is a wave front. The pressure wave travels at the speed of sound through the gas that is already in the primary. It arrives at the collector.

 

The wave meets a discontinuity; the change in profile. The high pressure wave front surges out into bigger pipe and this rushing discharge creates a low pressure area behind it - this is a low pressure wave that travels back up the primary, again at the speed of sound.

 

Traversing the distance to and from the collector at the speed of sound takes a certain amount of time. If this time is just right for the low pressure pulse to arrive back at the exhaust valve during overlap, it manages to evacuate the cylinder by a final and decisive amount, leaving a more evacuated cylinder ready to receive the new charge. This is a pulse tuned exhaust. The timing is just right at a particular point in the rev range.

 

A 4-2-1 just gives a second expansion in profile and a second pulse-tuning point lower in the rev range.

 

Exhaust wrap maintains exhaust temperature. The speed of sound is a function of this temperature. If the speed is slower (lower temperature), the wave spends more time travelling and dissipating energy, becoming weaker and coming in at lower rpm. Exhaust wrap has a plausible way of explaining itself as a power boosting device, besides just keeping engine bay air temperatures down.