VX cooling

[timbo]

I am beginning to think I have the wrong inlet manifold.

assistance please (XE red top engine).

 

The manifold has 2 coolant take offs - 1 runs to the header tank - 5mm ID hose from top right of manifold with a 3mm ID insert to restrict flow.

 

The 2nd take off is a 1.5" ID pipe that protrudes down from the bottom of the manifold????? On Caterham's cooling drawing for carbed VX this is illustrated as a similar sized take off as the one to the header tank. This runs into the bottom submarine pipe.

 

My problem is that with the dry sump the 'j' hose from the water pump sits higher than the manifold take off!!!

 

I am using a 3 conning tower submarine pipe running between the 'j' pipe from the water pump to the base of the radiator. 1 input is from the back of the head, a 2nd to the header tank & the 3rd should be from the inlet manifold.

 

On the caterham cooling drawing their manifold does not have this large diameter takeoff at the base of the manifold. Instead it has 2 smaller OD pipes that run from the r/h side of the manifold.

 

2ndly - this large diameter pipe from the inlet mainfold will have to reduce from 1.5" to c. 6mm ID into the submarine conning tower.

 

Does anyone have a similar manifold as mine - and how did you get round this problem.

 

 

 

JLZ7447

1.6K this week

[stevefoster]

I have the standard sub tube but had to rotate it a bit on the big J water hose to get the sump pump in. No other problems though.

 

I could take some digi pics of mine if you send me your Email addr..

 

My racing pics, 7 DIY, race prep. Updated often here

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[timbo]

ta - try me on tim.abraham@peugeotmail.co.uk.

 

JLZ7447

1.6K this week

[Rob Morris]

you have mail

[Vinnie]

The system as demo'd to Johnty in the car park at 8.30 Monday morning and double checked this morning is as follows:

 

Header tank, two connections:

 

First, upper and narrower bore pipe goes to the higher of the two points on the inlet manifold. This point is immediately ahead of the throttle bodies and just behind the point where the alternator bracket bolts to the block.

 

Second lower and larger bore pipe goes to conning tower on (metal submarine) J pipe. Connects roughly below the alternator and is the nearest of the conning towers to the radiator (bottom)

 

Heater tank, two connections:

First to point on back of head, about 6 inches away via an S shaped pipe

Second to a conning tower on the submarine J pipe (The nearest conning tower to the water pump)

 

Metal J pipe, 5 connections two ends plus three conning towers:

Working from the water pump end of the J - short end

1. Roughly 3" rubber sleeve to connect submarine to water pump

2. Conning tower to heater (See above)

3. Conning tower to *second* connection on inlet manifold

4. Conning tower to header tank (See above)

5. Connection via hose to bottom of radiator

 

Top Hose. Direct connection from thermostat housing to top of radiator. (I have seen a small sleeve / tube with a bleed valve inserted here e.g. on Martin Fenn's car) Simon's car has no other connections here.

 

This concludes the voting for the Helsinki jury

 

Vinnie

[timbo]

Each and very one of your points is correct Vinnie except your alternator is on the right hand side of the engine as you look towards the back of the car (the bottom rad hose is on the left hand side), but the problem lies in the inlet manifold.

 

The problem lies in your inlet manifold. The caterham installation with the correct manifold has 2 take offs immediately to the right of no.1 cylinder (at frt of eng) (above & below each other). 1 goes to the header tank with a small restrictor insert, the other straight down into the 1st conning tower.

 

Your manifold has a 1.25" !!!!! take off between cyl 1 & 2 and points straight downward. In my opinion this is the wrong inlet manifold.

 

Can you get me the right manifold - forward to JJ.

 

JLZ7447

1.6K this week

[Vinnie]

Hi,

 

1. You've mentioned a few dimensions for the second take off 1.5" and 1.25".

2. To what was this second take off connected when I was told the car was a runner?

3. Why can't the problem be solved with a reducer pipe from 1.5 / .25" to 5/8 or whatever it needs to be?

4. We can't both be right about the pipe from the back of the head - you state it was plumbed to the conning tower, I said it should be connected to the heater

 

 

Vinnie

[Johnty Lyons]

We are all three right!!!! It goes from the back of the head to a heater by-pass valve at the matrix and from there to the conning tower [ come on lads think] so by deduction the back of head just like a K series runs if the heater valve is closed to the submarine. And thats the way it has always been plumbed and was so when we had it running The outlet from the inlet manifold is the problem in that our reducer a made up affair had a perpensity to letting go under pressure and there is not a lot of room under the inlet manifold the outlet size is not important for descriptive purposes suffice to say it's twice as large as all the other pipes into the submarine and cannot be measured without removinf the Webers and the manifold so it's exact size is unknown BUT it will need a reducer and some kinky pipework since there is not a lot of room under the manifold and between it and the d sump pump this ackward plumbing was what Rob was referring to when he saw the car. Ther is no doubt the correct Caterham submarine has now simplified matters its just getting this Cavalier manifold outlet to play ball with the conning tower that is proving problamatic.

 

jj

N.I. L7C AO.

Membership No.3927.

[timbo]

 

Vinnie:

 

1. if you bypass the heater you can go direct to the submarine from the back of the head - we're both right. The plumbing direction is fine and has always been.

 

Here's the problem for the last time. You have only 1 take off at the end of the inlet manifold which goes to the header tank. The large diameter takeoff (1.25"-1.5" roughly Vinnie!) under the inlet manifold is the problem. It protrudes 2-3" down below the level of the manifold. When you put an 90 degree elbow on this it must route down below the level of the 'j' hose & then up again and then down again to feed into the submarine conning tower - not a direct route by any means.

 

Aswell this pipe needs to reduce from c. 1.25" to c. 8mm. Try finding a reducer that snakes like this!!! The height of the drysump + the steering column mean the 'J' hose has to sit sligthly up from the horizontal.

 

If we had the manifold with the 2nd takeoff, below the header tank take off, a 10mm hose straight down would by the most efficient and neatest job with least risk of airlock.

 

I certainly can bodge a pipe but my concerns are that such a 'snaking' pipe may promote airlocking which is proving to be problematic at the moment. Plus my concerns centre that on the cat installation the size of flow from this large inlet outlet is significantly greater than that through the correct manifold as prescribed by Caterham & Westfield for that matter.

 

Your call!

 

JLZ7447

1.6K this week

[EFA]

 

I really do not understand why are we talking about K series plumbing when the guy with a problem has a VX???

 

Timbo,

 

The Submarine (J) tube can either b e straight with a flexible hose U shape on the end, or the U shaped bit can be part of the tube.

 

Carb cars have a straight tube with a flexible hose U shape on the end.

 

The J shaped sub tube is for cars with the OEM VX injection.

 

 

The large dia tube form the inlet manifold gose to the sub tube, and the small tube goes to the top of the header tank. Another 15mm i/dia tube goes from the bottom of the header tank to the sub tube at the rad end.

 

If you have a heater there is a third hose connection off the sub tube which runs to the heater, the other side of the heater connecting to the back of the head.

 

 

If you need any expert advice this afternnon, I'm on 07710 526739.

 

 

 

Fat Arn

Visit the K2 RUM website

See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here

 

[timbo]

does anybody get a sense of dejavu from this thread - Arnie- you seem to have just repeated what we already know - somewhat ironic your icon tag eh ;0))) who's talking about K series (JJ just used it as a reference).

 

perhaps a better question is the type of inlet manifold you run - does it have a large diameter take off (c.1.5-1.25") pipe pointing straight down roughly between inlet tracts 1 & 2 of does it have 2 much smaller takeoffs to the right of no. 1 inlet tract?

 

JLZ7447

1.6K this week

[EFA]

Timbo,

 

I have now read the thread again and can see its a bit ambiguous. There is though a J shaped submarine tube which joints to the water pump by just a 2" lengtyh of hose.

 

I do not understand all the reference to pipe reducers etc. They are completely unnecessary on any VX.

 

"Does it have a large diameter take off (c.1.5-1.25") pipe pointing straight down roughly between inlet tracts 1 & 2?? - Yes the manifold cooling arrangement you describe is exactly as all carb and inj manifolds for for a C20XE VX engine.

 

Does it have 2 much smaller takeoffs to the right of no. 1 inlet tract? - No, only the carb manifold has this, and in that case only the larger one is used, the other is normally blanked off by soldering it up or fitting a small insert.

 

The J part of the hose you have connnecting the pump to the sub tube will probably need to twisted. There is normally about a 4" length of 30mm ID hose between the inlet manifold and the large outlet on the sub tube.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fat Arn

Visit the K2 RUM website

See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here

 

[timbo]

Ok - so are you stating that your submarine pipe has 30mm inlet from 'J' hose, a 30mm outlet to bottom of rad, a 10mm conning tower to heater/back of head, a 10mm conning tower to bottom of expansion tank and A 30MM CONNING TOWER THAT SNAKES UP TO THE 30MM OUTLET PROTRUDING FROM THE BASE OF THE INLET MANIFOLD JUST BETWEEN INLET TRACTS 1 & 2. - THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE IMPLYING FROM YOUR THREAD.

 

"There is normally about a 4" length of 30mm ID hose between the inlet manifold and the large outlet on the sub tube"

 

My submarine has 3 EQUAL SIZED conning towers as per the caterham VX cooling diagram.

 

 

JLZ7447

1.6K this week

[EFA]

 

 

If this is your gratitude to free qualified advice I really cannot be bothered to help you. You clearly know more about this than me.

 

Fat Arn

Visit the K2 RUM website

See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here

 

[timbo]

arnie - don't take it that way - I'm getting quite p****ed off try to get my head around the inlet manifold plumbing - nothing personal meant.

 

 

 

JLZ7447

1.6K this week

[rjc]

Ohhhhh... my kind of thread. Intrique, passion and cars !! *tongue* *tongue* *tongue*

 

I just had to go and look under the bonnet of my VX which is on carbs and has a heater. Well...... when I bought it I was living in Scotland - it's bludy cold up there 😬 😬

 

I too have a submarine pipe that is straight with three equal sized conning towers. I don't want to torpedo anyone elses arrangement 😳 😬 but here's how it goes.

 

Radiator connected by large dia pipe from thermostat housing on exhaust side and by large dia J tube thro' the sub pipe and further tube to the bottom of the rad on the inlet side.

 

Header tank is fed by small dia hose from small diameter connection on inlet manifold to small connection on header tank. Larger diameter hose runs from base of header tank to conning tower numer 1, (nearest radiator).

 

Heater assembly is connected to conning tower number 2 with a long length of hose that comes up runs along the inlet manifold and connects to top hose into heater. The other pipe connects to the water outlet on the back of the head. If you do not have a heater, connect the back of your head to the submarine 😳 😬. (cough !)

 

Another medium size pipe is connected to the larger outlet on the inlet manifold adjacent to cyl 1 and runs to conning tower number 3 on the sub pipe. I had to bend this pipe a bit to get it all to fit. I have to slacken the connection and bleed this pipe individually when I change coolant.

 

There is no water connection between cylinders 2 and 2 on my inlet manifold. As old fat man Arnie quite rightly says this manifold is for VX engines fitted with the standard vauxhall plenum injection system.

 

Caterham do a nice set of diagrams of the cooling system for both VX injection and carb applications. Why not give 'em a ring and ask for them. Unfortunately I seem to have lost my carb one and can only find the injection system.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rjc]

Well well, me again. I've just compared my inlet manifold to the one in the Vauhall injection system diagram.

 

Guess what 😳 two different manifolds. If you are running the Vauxhall plenum injection system you need the J shaped submarine pipe that Arnie mentioned. This manifold is the one with the large downward facing connection by inlet to cyl 2 (ish). It's a completely different arrangement to the carb manifold.

 

If you are on carbs or equivalent throttle bodies, you need the Webber Carb compatible inlet manifold. This is the one with the two take offs in front of cyl 1 inlet tube and is compatible with the straight submarine pipe pipe with the 3 equal sized conning towers. There is no large downward facing connection on this manifold at all. (Well, there isn't on mine!)

 

I figure you have a converted engine from a Vauxhall car with the plenum manifold bolted into a Caterham with the rest of the gubbins for a carb/ throttle body application. That would explain a lot of the previous entries on this thread.

 

You can get a Webber inlet manifold direct from Caterham but it will need a bit of filing and grinding to finish it and match it to the inlet ports. Personally I wouldn't go to fiddling with reducing tubes etc. it's crowded enough under there as it is !

 

So there we go ! Everybody was right all along. Let's all dance happily into the sunset, compare periscopes and splice the mainbrace together.

 

See you at Le Mans ?

 

 

 

[timbo]

at least - the truth prevails - ta Rowland. It just confirms what I have suspected all along - the manifold we have is straight from the Vx tintop (injection) - the carb manifold differs. Luverly!!

 

JLZ7447

1.6K this week

[Johnty Lyons]

You WISH have just received a new manifold from Vinnie he had it sent from QED it's an SBD one funnily enough and is supposed to be a carb one Quess what its exactly like the one weve already got, What a waste of time and money Da*n and Blast these B(&&%y Vxsgive me a simple K anyday.

[Johnty Lyons]

Spoke to SBD this morning you need to bodge the plumbing on a se7en with this manifold which is what we where doing with the Cavalier one [ which is what this one is as well] So I've sent it back to QED [ it's actually the SBD one they sell] and asked them to credit Vinnies card. Will tour VX dealers and Plumbers merchants to-morrow :-((

[Garibaldi]

Probably a bit late for this now but here goes:- the SBD throttle body manifold fitted to my VX came with a S shaped, hollow cast pipe about 4" long that bolted in position to the right of No1 T/B and transfered the coolent outlet rearwards to between No1/2 T/B.

This makes the T/B manifold a direct replacement for the standard VX injection manifold when fitted in the original Astra etc.

To fit this manifold in my 7 and mate up with Caterhams 3 outlet, straight, carb/JPE sub pipe i did not fit this cast extension.

I turned from ally bar a step down converter that bolts on to the manifold as per the cast extension but takes a 15mm (from memory) hose (same diameter as the other outlets from the sub pipe).

So my sub pipe is plumbed in with the 1st (front) outlet to the header tank, 2nd via a long hose to the heater and the 3rd verticaly upwards (about 3") to the new outlet to the right of No1 T/B

This setup seems to work, has no botched pipes and gives good clearance over the dry sump pump

Regards

Gary