K series front crank oil seal

[TomB]

The front crank oil seal on my dry sumped 1.4SS popped out during the track day at Anglesey, dumping oil everywhere.

 

Having stripped the timing belt, pulleys etc off, I can definately say the ring seal around the end of the crank has failed. The seals around the cam shafts and the oil pump gasket seem OK.

 

Why has this happened? Is it just one of those things? I changed the oil & filter (a Champion filter) a fortnight ago - could this have had any contributary effect? Could a faulty filter lead to this?

 

The car is one of the 1996 1.4 race cars with Minister prepared engine, bought a year ago with 4900 miles. The car has now done 2 half days on track & has 12000 on the clock.

 

Does an uprated seal exist?

 

Help appreciated

[F355GTS]

Tom

 

I had a rear seal fail on a k series due to worn piston rings creating too much crankcase pressure, in the end the pressure found the weakest link.

 

If there is a problem with your oil pressure relief valve it may have caused this problem

 

Mark

[Rob Walker]

Using high revs before the oil has warmed up. The pressure release valve seems unable to cope and I have seen pressures up to 7 bar on my car. Not good for the crank seals.

[TomB]

I think my oil must have been up to temperature cos it was a) the 2nd session of the day & b) it was towards the end of the session when it went. Unless it was weakened or damaged earlier in the day - the car was driven to the track so it was well warmed up prior to going on track.

 

Would having too much oil in the system cause a failure? I understand that the dry sump system dumps excess oil into the catch tank & is self regulating if over full.

 

 

I will take apart the pressure relief valve & check out the state of the spring & sliding thing. Cant do much until after BH Monday when I can get new seals, belts, pressure relief valve bits etc.

[TomB]

Come on PC or Oily.....

[oilyhands]

It seems very unusual for that particular seal to come out of the housing unless the housing is cracked, the seal is quite a tight fit in its recess. The rear crank seal is a far more likely candidate for failure if crankcase pressure is high. I would have though that high oil pressure is unlikely to cause a blow out since most of the pressure build up is around the outside of the pump rotor and it has a tortuous path getting to the seal which is effectively outside of the pump.

 

I would inspect the pump housing carefully for a hairline crack or for damage to the recess in which the seal sits. Also have a good gander at and the end of the crank for anything that might 'pick-up' the seal and spin it.

 

oily

[Alex Birtwisle]

Tom, I did notice that the odd puff of blue smoke from your exhaust in the first couple of sessions before it all went wrong. Do you think that may be indicative of something going wrong elsewhere in the engine prior to the seal failing 🤔 🤔

 

Hope you are on the road soon

Alex

 

S713UMY

1.8K Viper Blue and Black

 

[mav]

Alex,

 

That is indicative of either slighlty worn piston rings, or valve guides. as it was only happening on overrun. Not so much of a problem really.

[TomB]

Alex, I b***dy hope not cos I have had a litter of kittens this weeK!! Dont think I could cope with any more trauma.

 

My engine is running very rich which may explain the smoke. It is a race engine so I am not surprised it may be worn if its had a hard life before I had it. One day I'll have a new engine...

 

Edited by - TomB on 21 Apr 2003 10:20:51

[DonkeyDave]

Tom - you had blue smoke coming out of the exhaust on the right handers the session prior to you losing the seal - it was quite slippery behind you in that session so I can only presume you were losing oil then too - BTW it was definately out the exhaust and not oil on the exhaust if you see what I mean, last K series I saw do that had knackered rings and guides

 

hope you get it sorted soon

[TomB]

How can I tell the condition of the rings & the guides? Will a compression test reveal anything useful? Prior to dropping its oil, the engine used very little oil & the exhaust was not smoky / oily when running warm.

 

At worst, the engine has had 5000 miles on track out of a total of 12700 (I got it on just under 5k). Would one of the 1996 ex race cars have wear problems all ready?

[SLR No.77]

Tom, there is a danger that we could all start to fear the worst - a broken ring, knackered bores, valve guides etc. However, whilst following you there was definately a small puff of blue smoke from you exhaust, I believe as you changed down or came off the over-run approaching the bends. With only 3 left handers, 2 of which would not produce those conditions, I think it is difficult to say that it only happened on right handers?

 

Was the seal holed, out of position (ie. out), inside out, or what? It is a relatively small compact seal, ie. strong, and if the cause was excessive oil pressure, it is a little surprising that the front rather than rear oil seal blew. I speak from experience on this one, having blown two separate rears due to over pressurising the crankcase! As Oily says, you really do need to check the oil pump housing to determine why the problem occured.

 

Probably best to assess the pump, fit a new seal and belt, and get the engine running again. Then we can go about doing pressure tests on the bores etc. The work involved thus far is comparatively minor compare to bore problems, so take one stage at a time.

 

E-mail me if you need anything.

 

Stu.

 

[TomB]

Upon removing the bottom pulley etc, the seal was sat on the crank - pulley shaft as if it had fallen out / blown out of the recess where it sits.

 

My mechanic mate who helped me strip it down thinks it is probable that it popped out because it wasnt fitted securely enough, or some corrosion or irregularilty on the shaft caused the seal to move or unsettle. He has pointed out that there shouldnt be high oil pressure here. The oil oump gasket looks OK from outside the car, although it hasnt been removed yet. The oil pressure was normal (for this car) prior to the seal going pop.

 

A normal indicated pressure on this car is 2.5 - 3 bar when driving hot, which is low compared to others noted here. I have just put this down to unreliable sender, as it has been like this since i have had it.

 

My MOT chap confirmed it is running excessively rich - off the gauge in fact!! I was going to have the ecu fidded with to drop it off a bit. This may explain the smoke / popping back on the overrun at high RPM.

 

I am not panicing too much about things written on here, as I know tech talk is populated by car hypochondriacs!! The engine still turns, so even it is worn, I know it should still work.

 

If it is tired, it may just bring the 1.8 nearer! Possibly next winters project.....

 

Edited by - TomB on 21 Apr 2003 20:31:56

[SLR No.77]

The puff from the exhaust (so to speak ) is definately oil - you don't get it much more of a defined blue, and not rich running.

However, don't pay too much attention to that problem until you're back up and running. If it was seriously terminal, you'd be putting out blue smoke all the time, which it does not appear to be doing.

I guess you're realising now that the oil pump out and in is a pretty straight forward job - I told you it was easy! Get it running and we can do a compression test.

I shimmed my pressure relief spring to get the presure up a little, but those details can be looked at later.

 

Stu.

[oilyhands]

I wouldnt panic too much about general engine condition till its running again. A compression test isnt that revealing, but a leak down test certainly is. If you are worried about your rings then give the bores a proper leak down test.

 

Oily

[TomB]

Whats a leak down test, how do you do them & what do you need?

 

Off to buy belts & the seal tomorrow. Should the seal just be pressed in or does a special bonding product exist? eg Loctite for rubber-metal joints, hylamar or even superglue??

[SLR No.77]

Tom, speak to Oily about seals etc.

 

Front seal is fitted dry.

 

Stu.

 

[oilyhands]

To fit the seal make sure the housing is perfectly dry and fit the seal square to the housing, push in initially with your thumbs and then drift home with a suitably sized socket, ensure the lip passes cleanly over the shaft (ooo-err) without 'flipping', sometimes running the tip of a cable tie around the inside of the lip will help to encourage it over the shaft without damage.

 

A leakdown test is done by pressurizing the cylinder with the piston at TDC on the firing stroke, the volume of air required to maintain pressure in the cylinder is measured by a gauge which will indicate the severity of the leakage, if there is excessive leakage you can usually hear it / see its effects.

 

If air is punted out of the engine breather then it's rings, if the coolant header tank starts to bubble then it's head gasket, if you hear hissing which increases in volume when the throttle is opened then it's inlet valves, a constant hissing which gives none of the above is usually exhaust valves.

 

I have a leakdown tester here but I may be a little far away from Area 51.

 

Oily

 

Edited by - oilyhands on 22 Apr 2003 07:56:35

[SLR No.77]

..................... but area 51 doesn't officially exhist ......................

[garyo]

I may be hijaking the thread, but I've a similar K oil seal problem...

 

I've just installed and run my K 1.8 for the first time, and after it's first 2 mile run, it began pissing oil from the bottom - I've traced the leak as best I can and found that it's coming out of the bell housing from behind the flywheel so suspect rear crank seal.

 

I've been a bit of a fool, or more likely just made some bad decisions at the end of a 3 day of 'race against time' engine fitting project, and decided that the top two rocker cover breather vents should be 'tidied up' by connecting them to each other using a 4 inch long pipe. I think I had my pinto/yb head on and assumed there'd be another crank case vent, and a couple of rocker cover breathers didn't really matter.

 

Is it fair to say that doing what I've done would always cause the weakest seal to blow - i.e. please reassure me that my piston rings aren't shagged - When I had the head off the bores still had honing marks on them so I assumed things were in good nick.

 

Thanks,

 

Gary.

[TomB]

Stu knows all about those seals going. I am sure he'll be along soon!

[SLR No.77]

Yes Gary, I do know all about these seals. Advantage is, if there is one, that having already taken the engine out, you get better and better at it

 

I did 450 miles on my fully rebuilt 1800 conversion, then the gritters were back out again. I took this as a sign to do further mods, including my newly aquired KV6 TBs & Emerald. I blame Cheshire Council. It was all their fault . I wasn't sure about the breathing arrangements for cars fitted with TBs, therefore I blanked them both off. Like a cork from a champagne bottle, a baby at launch, bacon butty greased gullet after too many pints of beer -------- out it came Trouble is as I now realise, all you do is increase the pressure in the crankcase until something finally blows - if it's only the rear end oil seal you've been lucky . In my case the crank cover & sump gaskets resembled throwing up with clenched teeth, and worst of all, I'd also broken the cam carrier to head seal - oil in plug holes and running down side of head.

I even have a Se7en shaped oil line on the drive where the oil was dripping from every rivet on the underside .

I rebuilt the engine with a new crank end seal and renewed the others as needed, and I also manufactured a venting system to allow the cam cover to vent back into the TBs. Unfortunately my venting didn't allow for the release of enough pressure, and the new crank end oil seal - fitted dry as per Rover dealer recommendations - relaunched itself rearwards. Consolation prize - hot oil does a damn good job of cleaning the inside of the bellhousing.

Rebuild no.2 (or was it 3?) fitted new seal using the official rover seal glue stuff as stated in the build manual - never trust the grease monkey at the dealer 🙆🏻 and incorporated catch tank with big bore pipe. Jobs a good'un.

Track day last Friday and everythings still together.

 

If you can get access to a parafin bath it really helps in cleaning everything up - I even had oil pouring from the loom 😳 - and check out the clutch carefully - if you can avoid depressing the pedal you probably wont have contaminated the plate. It's a pain, but that's life . My Se7en won't rust now. In fact, park next to me, and yours wont rust either!!!!

 

Stu.

[garyo]

Cheers Stu, a very entertaining post! I hadn't considered whether any other seals had blown too... knackers... the car is far away in Mid Wales where I was doing the work, so I'll have to just take the bits I was going to replace anyway and see what else I come across.

 

I needed an excuse to change clutch and flywheel anyway as I think it's too small for the job - currently a 180mm diameter metro K8 clutch! (running a transverse rover gearbox in the back of a Libra)

 

Thanks,

 

Gary.

[TomB]

I am almost entirely sure it is just my front crank seal that has popped, but without removing the engine & examing the rear, i cant be 100% sure.

 

If the back had gone as well, would the bits of the fly wheel that I can see through the gaps in the bell housing be oily, and secondly, would oil trickle / splash around these opening?

 

I looked around the bottom of the BH for a drain hole, but couldnt see one. I trust there would be no doubt & it would be very oily & obvious had the rear gone?

 

 

[F355GTS]

Tom

 

when my rear seal went it threw oil out of the gaps and over the starter, also burining on the rearmost exhaust primary and sprayed up the inside of the side skin

 

Mark