Car won't start

[Bob_Rich]

Hi  thanks again for all the interest

The the fuel  pump is a facet solid state electric pump it seems to provide around 2psi  when fitted to a gauge instead of the front carb. when hose removed from the front carb and all on free flow it supplies around 1 litre in around 20 seconds crude measurement into a jug.  On the input to the fuel pump I have fitted a new filter. The fuel coming out on the free flow test looks normal.

I gave it 5 throttle pumps before trying to start a couple of chugs  then nothing . Did try the choke system   but no improvement.  Good point about when the battery voltage dips  does the pump stop  or for that matter does the spark stop?? .  I have a switch on the fuel pump and in the past the engine would run for many seconds if I switched  it off

Ignition system is the  Lucas  Rally ignition  which as far as I can tell is OK  I am going to try to check is the spark  which is very good is at the right time?

the only time it chugs is when the Easy Start is used  but won't pick up and keep going

not giving up but it is most unexpected doh!

Bob

 

[anthony1956]

yes I agree with @Gridgway, and we do know those squirts are the accelerator pump mechanism right? NOT the main running jets.There will be a test for those pump jets in terms of how much fuel you should collect with 20 squirts.. however I am quoting Dellorto, not Weber, but similar will exist.

and I am in the minority for not using the pump jets to start the car; I prefer the choke (so a fuel air mix not solid fuel only), which I finally got to work a couple of days ago.

aside what the ignition timing set to? 

p.s. I think when using the pump jets yuou have to pump during cranking otherwise the fuel .. not sure where it goes.. 

Edited September 26 by anthony1956

[anthony1956]

I think you need this book to save me quoting all of it to you, also you will see the full picture of your problems  - it's my bible

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Build-Power-Weber-and-Dellorto-Carburettors-SpeedPro/

and if it's any consolation I have had ALL these troubles recently.

Edited September 26 by anthony1956

[anthony1956]

25 minutes ago, Bob_Rich said:

but won't pick up and keep going

yes so no fuel most likely - and/or bad timing but it worked previously I seem to think.

If the pump jets are working but the idle circuit isn't, this indicates that fuel may not be reaching the idle jets or passages or filters are clogged.

Edited September 26 by anthony1956

[OldAndrewE]

3 hours ago, Bob_Rich said:

 the plugs are suspiciously clean  and don't have a smell of fuel which is what I find odd

 

Really does make it seem like a fuelling problem, with all the attempts to start with no luck it should be flooded by now.  The fact that it was running originally on the old fuel and then failed would seem to say timing etc. is OK (unless you have changed anything)

Favourite is still that something is still blocked in the carbs although a bit odd all four cylinders seem the same

[OldAndrewE]

Agree with Anthony, it could be passages in the carbs

[Gridgway]

On the fuel feed side, does the pump change noise as the float chambers get full and back-pressure builds?  I assume it's the square one and assume that it makes a noise!  I have the round one which changes tone when the pressure is built up.

The Lucas Rally ignition (AB14) is notorious for being unreliable.  Mine was broken, but if yours runs on the eazistart, it sounds like it's ok.  Even if the fuel pump stops when the engine is cranked, there is plenty of fuel to start it from full float chambers.

I would be doing a lot of pumping of the pedal before and during cranking.  If you can't flood it, then there's a fuelling problem in the carbs.

[Bob_Rich]

hi again

 

thanks once again for the info

It is raining to day so car in the garage. but still did a few test along the lines of what was suggested on some posts. In a closed garage didn't want petrol and ether vapour ( and if lucky  exhaust fumes!)  in such a compact environment.

I checked the sparks again into my 4gap tester with the gaps set a about  6mm  all seemed to work ok  at cranking speeds.  Tried my timing light on the fan belt pullet mark against the timing marks on the engine block it looks like around 10 degrees advance but it was quite dark and with only a few sparks /second but with the garage lights off it seemed to be about right.

after that I used my syncrometer to check the check at each air horn  all read the same ar around 3.5kg/hour  the fact that they are the same is encouraging 

for the fuel pump  using a variable bench supply the fuel pump made its usual noise from 8V all the way up to 13.5V and the current was around 0.75A at all voltages.  It would start at 8.5V but at 8V the current rose to 0.85A and the speed one could hear went up quite a bit.  Anyway that should be OK but if necessary could  run the pump form the external supply if the battery started to sag.  It is getting quite a canning

family activities on the weekend  so get back on the case early next week  Have ordered the book Anthony1956 suggested.a sit he Has" been there and done that"

thanks for all the advice 

regards

bob

 

 

[anthony1956]

23 hours ago, Bob_Rich said:

" been there and done that"

yeah, still doing it, plodding on. With all those tests you have done I agree with Andrew agreeing with me, the passages in the carbs.What I try to do is blow through bits myself because then it's obvious when air flow is challenged. However, getting one's lips in there is sometimes interesting. I must warn you that book can be addictive 🙂 I now have way more skills and knowledge I never thought I wanted a few months ago. Have to say it's very satisfying to feel the improvements, incremental though they are. I suppose if you really have to you can have them professionally "serviced". Though while I am perfectly happy with the refurbishment mine had, this does not go as far as replacing e v e r y t h i n g e.g. springs, ball bearings and such and it does not leave them ready set up "to go". Granted any form at all of "go" will be very welcome.

As regards the spark side of things, I duck taped all 4 plugs attached to their HT leads, in firing order, to the cam cover (never quite sure if that conducts) and cranked. First time I did that I got very strange results; not firing in line of duck tape order 1,3,4,2. Despite countless requests to check my HT leads were in the right order, which they were, then they weren't. Ouch. (NOT suggesting this your issue). But do be wary of being confident anything you think works, does. It's can be all a bit humbling, at least in my case.  

Going have a look see if I can identify Weber passages. edit: see two below.

In this pic duck tape replace by fire extinguisher (just because it's heavy)

later edit: just seeing this pic again brings back my feelings when seeing the spark appearing in both the wrong order or not at all, by which I mean some plugs firing and others not... and in any case in the wrong order. Such weirdness it was. Now solved of course, but back then it felt like I would never see the day. Those plugs are of course in 1,3,4,2, firing order left to right. I did this test because it struck me testing just one is usually all very well, testing all 4 in the right order is pretty much just as easy, and is completely conclusive. 

Edited September 28 by anthony1956

[Gridgway]

15 minutes ago, anthony1956 said:

I suppose if you really have to you can have them professionally "serviced".

If I have got it right, Bob had the carbs refurbed (the same guy has done 2 sets for me so far).  So the crud (assuming that's what the problem is and it most likely is) will have come from the rusty tank and old fuel.  That makes me want to say that as new crud (!) it ought to be fairly easy to clean out somehow!  Just a question of getting to the crud.

@Bob_Rich have you called Paul and asked his advice?  If not that might help maybe.

[anthony1956]

@Gridgway Yes understood, agreed. Yes call Paul ! 🙂

[anthony1956]

found this:

https://240260280.com/Tech/Carbs/Weber/DCOE Theory Operation and Tuning.html

also check out figures 14 and 15, but to start with (literally) you want the idle circuit clear. Need valve looks favourite to be clogged and pump jets don't get their fuel that way (in Dellortos) i i r c  I am amazed how similar they both seem to be, but the layout is different; for example your pump jet circuit has a "Weight and ball bearing" (fig 24) looks just like mine. Some of my ball bearings were on top of instead of under the weight so those pump jets "dribbled" all the time, your paper test looked like one was weaker.

very tempting to think with all those bends it's trapping grot

 

Edited September 27 by anthony1956

[Bob_Rich]

Thanks for all this good advice folks. As I said tied up over the weekend will get back on the car next week.  Paul did clean them for me BUT I had not realised how bad the fuel tank was so  after fitting them that when the real problems started. Paul has been very  helpful. It looks from the  picture from Anthony1956 that I could get at the problem suspect area  and use my homemade air blaster.

one maybe related question is that my dizzy has magnetic reluctor not points. Dizzy has not be adjusted So how do I check the static timing? perhaps you can't. This leads me to suggest that  to get enough volts to charge the coil prior to a spark that there may be a minimum RPM that a spark can be generated?  Just wondering but still agree with all that fuel or lack of is the issue.

thanks for all the help

Bob

[Gridgway]

When the Lucas system works it seems to work in my experience.  I assume you've checked the sparks by cranking the engine?  But the engine runs on eazystart. So you know the spark is working. 

For the timing, you are right you can't check static timing like you can with points. 

But if it runs on ether the timing is close enough to get it started.

Edited September 28 by Gridgway
typo

[Bob_Rich]

Hi All  Again

Domestic life has intervened  and not got onto the car this week.  I did remove the top cover and the fuel looks not to bad now similar to the light green/tan colour  when it

is poured out of the gerry can containing  new fuel from the petrol  station  and have added STA BIL  as well.   I intend to contact Paul again and I was wondering if rigorous use of compressed air could blow out the small lead balls that are used to sell the end of drillings ?.  Come the weekend domestic life should be quite and so  will try to get it going again before  `i remove the carbs for another  look

regards  and thanks    not going away just a bit quiet on the 7 front

Bob

[Bob_Rich]

Hi all

Made some progress I checked  each cylinder with a leak down test and the results were basically ok.  in the Green high pressure area  of the 2nd gauge the leakage on all the cylinders  was around 15% . 

I got it started to day but I had to user Ether (holts easy start) which I would rather not have to do.  when it runs it is very lumpy there is a bit of spitting back and sometimes a back fire  but the real problem is that I cannot get it to run at less than 2000rpm.  I have wound the throttle stop back out so the throttles plates  are now just at rest as they would look on the bench. I started with the  the idle screw set 1 turn out so backed off to half a turn  very little change went down to 1/4 turn  still the same high rpm  

Once running it seems to speed  up and   I checked the synchrometer and each cylinder was pulling at around 10kg/hour. there was little blow back in the oil filler cap  and when I stopped the engine  the plugs do not look too bad certainly not coked up as they were when all they started.

The exhaust are very  hot -- again I suspect that is normal

I am at  loss to understand what it could be    HELP!

Bob

[anthony1956]

Quote

very lumpy there is a bit of spitting back and sometimes a back fire

sounds like the ignition timing is out - strobe to check. (and if so welcome to my world about which I knew nothing at all until a few weeks ago - with thanks to revilla)

is that "spitting" through the carbs? or at least one barrel of? and if so what's your firing order and which barrel is spitting? or just strobe check your timing..

Edited yesterday at 15:09 by anthony1956

[Bob_Rich]

Hi Anthony

 

Spitting back through the carbs  is  irregular,   as is the backfire.  What concerns me is the high speed around 2000 rpm.   I don't think it is timing making the ticker very high and the rpm is not adjustable down.  I am suspicious it is air leakage  but not sure where.  once the car cooled down  It again was difficult to start while it would pick up and "chug a bit"  it would just stop and wouldn't pick up. this could be because the idle screws were still on the setting  I had when trying to slow the tick over down. While hot however it started very easily but immediately ran at high ticker.

The firing order is interesting because I am not sure what it is!!  for the 1600GT , 1600 sprint and 1700 super sprint is  1-2-4-3 what the Tony Weale books states on page 214 and I have not had cause to question it. The dizzy has not moved,  Ignition leads are  carefully marked and are not mixed up.

My feeling is air leakage somewhere is causing and excess of fuel though the starting/ idle mechanism  so going the tighten up the carb to manifold  junction and compress the Misab plates a bit more  when (if) I get it running again will check the advance with my timing light.

keep muddling on !!  

Bob

[Gridgway]

If you have the cup washers either side of the small rubber blocks, the nuts should be done up so there is about 1mm gap between the washers if that makes sense?

[anthony1956]

checking the timing cannot hurt. 

Yes mine says 2mm gap; I suppose same difference to above, I forget how much the external outside end of the carbs/filters are supposed to droop when pushed, 10mm, something like that.

More importantly as regards air leaks (yes had all that recently) make absolutely sure the carbs have exactly the same gap all the way round with that 1 or 2mm spacing in the Cosworth rubber "washers". Also check the inlet manifold(s). Easy start judiciously squirted will speed up the engine if there are air leaks. 

strobe check the timing.. 😉  

isn't the idle screw just one screw and NOT the mixture screws? Yes balance between the carbs will make huge difference.

[anthony1956]

Quote

when (if) I get it running again will check the advance with my timing light.

you can do that just by cranking it (edit: ok someone else has to crank it 😉  ), whether it starts or not. Suggest video it (phone) as it can be less easy to see when so slow.  

assuming you have marked the TDC alignment markers with Tippex or some such.

 

Edited 6 hours ago by anthony1956

[SM25T]

1 hour ago, Bob_Rich said:

Hi Anthony

 

Spitting back through the carbs  is  irregular,   as is the backfire.  What concerns me is the high speed around 2000 rpm.   I don't think it is timing making the ticker very high and the rpm is not adjustable down.  I am suspicious it is air leakage  but not sure where.  once the car cooled down  It again was difficult to start while it would pick up and "chug a bit"  it would just stop and wouldn't pick up. this could be because the idle screws were still on the setting  I had when trying to slow the tick over down. While hot however it started very easily but immediately ran at high ticker.

The firing order is interesting because I am not sure what it is!!  for the 1600GT , 1600 sprint and 1700 super sprint is  1-2-4-3 what the Tony Weale books states on page 214 and I have not had cause to question it. The dizzy has not moved,  Ignition leads are  carefully marked and are not mixed up.

My feeling is air leakage somewhere is causing and excess of fuel though the starting/ idle mechanism  so going the tighten up the carb to manifold  junction and compress the Misab plates a bit more  when (if) I get it running again will check the advance with my timing light.

keep muddling on !!  

Bob

Surely firing order is 1-3-4-2 on a Ford 1600 ??

[anthony1956]

Just now, SM25T said:

Surely firing order is 1-3-4-2 on a Ford 1600 ??

I don't know, so not asserting anything.

[OldAndrewE]

11 minutes ago, SM25T said:

Surely firing order is 1-3-4-2 on a Ford 1600 ??

No, 1-2-4-3 for the X/flow, the BDR is 1-3-4-2

[Bob_Rich]

Hi All 

firing order

Have checked it by looking at the valves and the order when  cylinders are at TDC with both valves closed. The order this occurs is 1-2-4-3 and as I say this agrees with the Tony Weale Book. The BDR and the Twin cam  are  1-3-4-2.

Still pinning hope on the possibility that the carbs are too slack on the manifold   leading to air leaks

But am  close to having no further ideas

Bob