Gary-Cornwall Posted December 25, 2000 Share Posted December 25, 2000 Having just bought a VX live axle my brother has reccommended I consider changing to Escort rear axle to give better options on gear ratios and rear brakes. There is also thought that this maybe a bit stronger. This topic may have been debated in the past but as I'm new to the site I would appreciate some help/advice on this subject.Is this common and are there any pitfalls? Many thanks, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elie boone Posted December 26, 2000 Share Posted December 26, 2000 Gary,It isnot possible to change the Ital axle for a Ford axle without chassis modifications the tunnel has to be wider at the end for a Ford axle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonray Posted December 26, 2000 Share Posted December 26, 2000 A number of us have done this conversion. I've had it done this year. The transmission tunnel does need to be flared out a bit further on the drivers side to give clearance for the larger diff housing on the Ford axle, but this can be done without too much trouble. It is certainly possible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary-Cornwall Posted December 28, 2000 Author Share Posted December 28, 2000 (Simonray) - What was your motivation for doing the conversion? Was it worth it ? I wonder if those guys who've done it already did it out of neccesity because of problems with the Ital unit or to try to gain other advantages? Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bl0498 Posted December 31, 2000 Share Posted December 31, 2000 Gary, I assume your car is a recent 8v VX 1600. Until recently I had one of these cars ( a scholarship car) and my colleagues that went on to do the Caterham Graduates series had a lot of problems with the rear axle - diff whine, breaking half shafts etc. I believe there are now quite a few strengthened bits such as half shafts etc around and available to make this axle much more resilient than previously. Several of myy hillclimb/sprint colleagues have also fitted an LSD to replace the standard diff - this is apparently stronger too. Probably the best person to speak to on improving the resilience of the axle is Derek Moore at Classic Carriage - who provide all the technical support for the Scholarship/Academy/Graduate series. 01455 841616. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonray Posted January 2, 2001 Share Posted January 2, 2001 Gary Sorry for the delay in replying. I'm told that the Ford axle is much stronger than the Ital and I want to race on slicks this year. The change was prompted by a bearing failure which is quite common on the Ital axle and likely to be more so with more power and grip. The down side (apart from the expense) is that the Ford axle is a whopping 15kg heavier. Was it worth it? Well, I don't know how long my Ital axle would have lasted but it gives me some peace of mind that I'm not going to shed a wheel half way around Goodwood! Simon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary-Cornwall Posted January 2, 2001 Author Share Posted January 2, 2001 Brian - Thanks for the advice. My car was built by Classic Carraige so I guess that's a good place to start. Simon - Thanks also for the response. There seems to be differences of opinion about the amount of work involved from my phone enquiries. I think we'll just remove the Ital Axle and "square up" the ford unit ourselves to see the difference. I assume that given the amount of concern there is over the Ital unit, that the conversion won't adversely effect re-sale value? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonray Posted January 3, 2001 Share Posted January 3, 2001 Providing it's done right, I can't see that the conversion will harm the value of the car. In fact, I think it will enhance it - especially to anyone considering competition. Roughly where are you in the country? I'm in Berkshire. You'd be welcome to come and have a look at my car to see what's involved. Simon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary-Cornwall Posted January 3, 2001 Author Share Posted January 3, 2001 Simon, thanks for the offer. I'm down in Sunny Cornwall so it's a bit of a treck. I'm hoping to do a few events this year so hopefully I'll get a look at someone's conversion sooner or later. Thanks for all the advice, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry H Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 Just another couple of points. You will probably need to shorten your propshaft and will have to fit a smaller diameter propshaft flange on the diff. With the smaller flange you might get away without flaring the transmission tunnel - I did! SPC in Rwdditch can supply recon escort axles with the correct fittings (suspension mounts, handbrake bracket etc.). Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary-Cornwall Posted January 4, 2001 Author Share Posted January 4, 2001 Barry H - Thanks for the comments. Big Bro had a smaller flange sat in the garage as per 1100 Escort models.I can see it's quite a bit smaller when compared to the standard 1300 type. Surely it can't be as simple as that? What model is your car? Are there any other potential problems? How did you overcome fitment of wheels to new axle? Thanks to all for continued help. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonray Posted January 5, 2001 Share Posted January 5, 2001 Even with the small flange, you still need to flare the tunnel. And the propshaft does need to be shortened, as has been pointed out. And of course, you'll need to change your front hubs and wheels to Ford PCD, or have different spacings front and rear. Simon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry H Posted January 5, 2001 Share Posted January 5, 2001 Gary, My 7 is 1997 Classic as used for the scholarship in 1998 and as regards the flange, yes it was as simple as that! I think the flaring issue is down to individual car idiosynchrasies because unlike Simon I didn't need to flare mine. It's a question of try it and see. Regarding wheels; yes it is necessary to get Ford PCD wheels for the rear but as Simon says you can continue with the existing hubs and wheels on the front if you want to - as I never swap front to rear it is not an issue. Regards, Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonray Posted January 5, 2001 Share Posted January 5, 2001 Barry I wish it had been that easy on my car! Mine's a '93 'GTS' chassis, so there may be differences in the tunnel design. Or itt may be a case of the cornering forces being developed. With the tunnel flared, I still had some problems with the propshaft (rather than the flange) fouling the rivet tails in the tunnel, but only on hard, uphill right hand corners on ACB10s (e.g. Paddock Bend at Lydden.)Nothing that couldn't be solved with some gentle persuasion and a crowbar. It's not really possible to tell whether there are going to be problems until you are able to generate these kind of forces. Simon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry H Posted January 5, 2001 Share Posted January 5, 2001 Simon, Interesting. There is certainly a fair amount of clearance at present and fairly spirited cornering on A510's has not given a problem. I'll keep my fingers crossed but it does seem that even if there is any fouling it will only be minor and easily resolved. Cheers, Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary-Cornwall Posted January 5, 2001 Author Share Posted January 5, 2001 Guys, Mine was built Dec '98 for the '99 scholarship series so I maybe lucky. I think we'll size it up and give it a go. Thanks again guys. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bl0498 Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 Barry, So does this mean you have got the engine rebuilt then?..... Best Regards, Brian Simon, My understanding is that the scholarship cars and the later Classic VX cars all use the universal live axle chassis as required for the 5 speed box. I believe this was developed after 93. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry H Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 Hi Brian, Yes, engine in and running well - that is until oil pressure suddenly disappeared! I think it was probably the gauge but taking no chances out came the engine again so I could check bearings etc. Practice makes perfect - I have got engine removal time down to 2 hours. Takes a bit longer putting it back for some unknown reason. Any thing you'd like me to say regarding the importance of throttle bodies etc. when we meet , wives et al on 27th? See you then, Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bl0498 Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 Barry, I see you saw my other posting!! Now that I seem to have most of the bits I can actually start to build it.... See you on the 27th. Brian Apologies Gary for hijacking your thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KayTee Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Having considered buying an Ital axle for my BDA-equipped 7 rebuild, I phoned SPC this morning. Gotta be Ford, he told me :-( *At least* 500 + VAT, that's the axle bog standard. LSD adds another 387+VAT; upgraded halfshafts + flange: another 300 + VAT ... So, it's just gonna be a bog standard one for the beginning. BUT: I want to be able to use the spare-wheel on either end. THIS means: front has to be converted to Ford PCD. Can anyome tell me, what has to be changed ? The hubs, apparently, but what else ? Do I need new stub-axles, bearings, etc. ? What's a rough cost estimate ?? Thanks & Regardss - Karsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R2D2 Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 How powerful is the BDA ? English Ford axles may be stronger than the Ital but they won't really deal with the power output of a fully modified BDA and sticky tyres without half-shaft failure. Quaife supply a kit to convert the Mexico/RS2000 English Axle to 3/4 floating half-shafts, which they claim will allow up to 250BHP.The only problem is that the cost is £525 +VAT. I hear rumours that TR7s were fitted with half shafts that were stronger than Ital and Marina because of a higher grade of material but I don't know if this is true. Does any one know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KayTee Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Well, the engine should be putting out around 180 bhp on '45 carbs. I might got M3D and EFI at some time in the future. So, does that mean I am doomed to spending a whooping 1200 quid PLUS VAT for the freaking axle ??? I had considered new wheels, anyway. But: WHAT needs to be doen to the front ? What exactly ? Hubs, sure, but axle, etc. ?? Dammit, and I can't go back to the axle I've got, because one mounting point packed up during disassembly ... Not happy - Karsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Gibson Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Having the Ital axle for a while now and not encountering any problems. Just hard driving and occasional track day, should I be looking for a axxle break eventually. Being in the USA, I have never heard of an Ital. Is there any cars exported to the USA that have this axle so I may go out and find a spare now? Many thanks, Richard Gibson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark.hall Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Chris I believe that the TR7 was originally designed with V8 power in mind, and only got the "Dolomite" engine 'cos BL or whoever they were at the time, ran out of money/engines or somesuch. So I think it got beefy transmission components fitted to all models. It might be worth asking the owners club though.......... Richard The Ital or Morris Marina is pretty old, so I doubt that any current cars are exported with this axle. Have you ever seen a Morris Marina/Ital in the statesquestion.gif I have heard that a Lada rear axle has similar dimensions to the Ford item, but I have no idea about wheel offsets or PCD, so that piece of info is probably not much help. Why not see if your local Ford dealer knows of any "English" axles in use, or if he can source them. Ford is a global company after all.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R2D2 Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 I would have thought that an English Ford axle should just about suffer 180BHP without the Quaife half shaft kit but most of the axles that we are talking about are quite old and the half shafts have probably done quite a few miles and have used a fair amount of their "fatigue life". I would certainly crack detect half shafts from an old axle before I used them with confidence. I use an Ital axle with a 160BHP Twin Cam and I haven't had any trouble yet. I think that if I was going to go to the trouble of changing the axle I would look at a more serious upgrade than the Ford. Birkin use a Toyota Axle from the AE86 which they re-manufacture in South Africa and is fairly bomb-proof. (The AE86 rally cars produced well over 250BHP and never suffered transmission failures). You can buy these axles secon-hand in UK from Fennsport in East Anglia for less than £100. I don't know what the PCD is but in shouldn't be too difficult to re-drill the half-shaft flange an fit an Ital stud. (I hope) If you decide to use the Ford axle and you do need to change the front you will only need to buy hubs. The Caterham has always used the Herald/Spitfire upright (now manufactured in Coventry) so all of the bearings, discs etc still it. I din't know if Caterham currently supply aluminium alloy hubs as standard but these are readily available with either Ford or Ital PCD and if I were changing hubs I would take the opportunity to reduce the unsprung weight at the same time. I would also fit new wheel bearings as removing the inner track from old hub, withit any damage could be tricky. Merlin Motorsport stock suitable alloy hubs at about £80 each fitted with studs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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