Jump to content
Click here if you are having website access problems ×

Titan diff oil change interval?

GulfSeven

By GulfSeven
in TechTalk

 Share

Recommended Posts

GulfSeven

GulfSeven

Posted
Posted

I've read the entire BMW/Titan LSD viablity thread (and contributed), but as the owner of a 310R with full preload after 2 years and 2,500 miles I've no problem with sticking with the factory-supplied diff. I can check the preload annually going forward too, so what I'd like to know is should I be getting the oil changed, and if so, at what interval? I don't believe there's any need to service the diff as per Titan's recommendations unless I see the preload dropping, but equally, Caterham's service schedule only tops up the diff oil...

Ta.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
ScottR400D

ScottR400D

Posted
Posted

There's a good chance the Titan will last quite well in a 310, especially as, if it's only two years old, it will have the sintered plates. It seems to be the more powerful engined cars in which it doesn't last well. 

Having a full preload doesn't guarantee that you have no cracked or cracking bellvilles. When I had the Titan in my R400, I used to change the oil every 2 years. The old oil was usually pretty black but I didn't realise the significance of that at the time. When it failed at 5 years, 7500 miles, it was completely wrecked.  Cracked and broken bellvilles and completely worn out carbon plates. 

I replaced the Titan with a Tracsport in July 20 and changed the oil after a year, 2000 or so miles. The oil was pretty much clean and there was just a slight fur of plate material on the mag plug. No drop in the 25ft lb initial preload. 

I will continue to change the oil every year and do the same checks and would suggest you do the same though I would strongly recommend that you fit a mag plug if you haven't already done so. That way you'll be able to monitor any failure of bellvilles and prevent the bits getting into the CWP, if that does happen. 
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
GulfSeven

GulfSeven

Posted
  • Author
Posted

There's a good chance the Titan will last quite well in a 310, especially as, if it's only two years old, it will have the sintered plates.

Exactly - it's why I'm not too worried.

I will continue to change the oil every year and do the same checks and would suggest you do the same though I would strongly recommend that you fit a mag plug if you haven't already done so.

That's a good idea when changing the oil for the first time. I might wait and add it on to the next service though. I know Caterham sells the oil, but I can't see mag plugs on the parts site (although that might just be because the search is terrible). Do you have a link to a compatible plug?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
ScottR400D

ScottR400D

Posted
Posted

You can get oil anywhere really, no need to buy from CC thought they're reasonably competitive unless they charge a lot for delivery. You don't need to use Motul, that's just the current deal they have. Since I got my car they've pushed Comma, Millers and Motul. 

You might be better off getting the LS90 from Road and Race, some say it makes a big difference with the sintered plates noise, though I never found that. 
 

The plug is available on EBay, 

Gold Plug Magnetic Sump Plug AP-22. M22 22mm Oil Drain Plug. M22 x 1.5 AP22

Make sure it clears the de Dion, it ought to but some have found it's close. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChrisC

ChrisC

Posted
Posted

There is a magnetic drain plug specifically designed for BMW diffs, so it has the same dimensions and seal, so no worries about clearance.  Not cheap, and comes either in aluminium or titanium. 
 

Not a fan of the Motul stuff, back in 2016 with my 360R, I switched at the first service to Motul from the kit supplied Commer, this increased the noise from the diff. At the time it was carbon plates, so it wasn't plate noise.   Personally now I use the RRT special blend, which reduces the noise.

Two year service interval with a magnetic drain plug sounds sensible for road use with the occasional trackday.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
ScottR400D

ScottR400D

Posted
Posted

I don't think it's anything that special, it just has more friction modifiers than normal to enable the plates to slip with less noise than they might, itself partially caused by the very high preload used. 

From what I've been told it's just dealing with a symptom of the problem not the problem itself, but it seems to work for some. The short time I ran a Titan with RRT oil and others for comparison I found no significant difference. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
AG2728

AG2728

Posted
Posted

Of course it's inevitable. It's doing its job. I was just trying to illustrate how much crap you can pull out after a short time.

it's a Titan. It's done 1800 miles from new and that's the 3rd diff oil change.

I would imagine if I had the luxury of a drain plug at the base of the diff casing, there would me more of it to remove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
David_Long

David_Long

Posted
Posted

In terms of oil and noise in differential, it is an interesting subject that goes back to the earliest days of automotive engineering. Much of the whining noise generated is caused by the oil being squeezed from between the teeth in pulses. It resonates at particular frequencies dependent on the oil, design of the casing, and other factors such as oil quantity. The noise was engineered out (to a degree) by introducing helical gears that had continuous mess.  Ford took it a stage further by adjusting the tooth profile, housing shape, and using calibrated tools to 'adjust' the mesh pattern to further help reduce the intensity of the oil ejected and noise generated. 

So it is perhaps not a surprise that any re-working of a diff can upset 75 years of refinement. But a noisy diff is not necessarily an unhappy one.  Choosing an oil to reduce the noise is personal choice, but I suspect older technology oils are quieter simply because they are less inclined to adhere to the surfaces (they get thrown off the crown wheel) - additives are likely to have a similar effect.  Another trick used is to add additives that help to aerate the oil which provides dampening. It is all about what is important to you - the noise, or the oil performance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
ScottR400D

ScottR400D

Posted
Posted

DCL, I think the additives in the RRT oil are aimed at reducing the grinding and grunting noises from the Titan's sintered plates, not the whining. 

To be fair I've not suffered from significant whine in either of my diffs, though I know some are intolerable and sometimes impossible to fix. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
AG2728

AG2728

Posted
Posted

Just to reiterate, the purpose of my diff plug pic was to show how hard that oil has worked, not to have a pop at Titan LSDs. Bearing in mind the oil going in is bright blue (Motul) and it comes out black and thick. It took almost 20 minutes to empty 1 litre by a vacuum pump due to the consistency.

The residue on the magnet was more silicone sealant than grease like in consistency and there was less swarf type substance than I found on the gearbox plug.

I would imagine if my mileage had been purely road use, then it would probably look worse. A plate diff with such high pre-load together with shallow ramp angles is never going to last that long with light use so maybe it's not the best option for a road car. Once I retire the car from sprinting I will definitely be looking at something from Quaife or Wavetrac as a fit and forget component for road use.

I work with Porsches and the race cars get regular diff rebuilds as a matter of course, often with plenty life left in them. But the show queen 30000 miler, GT3 RS with a cars and coffee, lunch at Goodwood type usage will have diffs that are shot to pieces. It's not what they were really intended for.

But for now I am mightily impressed with the Titan's performance and I accept that at some point it will need a rebuild. Preload has only reduced slightly, it's noisy but it always has been but it is very efficient and predictable on track. IMHO It's all about expectation and being sold the correct tool for the job.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • Area Representative
Geoff Brown

Geoff Brown

Posted
  • Area Representative
Posted

We all have opinions on the rights & wrongs of the Titan so I do not wish to enter into finger pointing. Lets just say there are many many satisfied Tracsport drivers out there. Time will tell.

If the track record of Titans are anything to go by then owners on average could be dropping the diff every 2-3 years to have the LSU overhauled iaw the Titan recommendations. So possibly £540 including incidentals. The cost of two Titan services (not including inflation) over a period of possibly 6 years almost buys a Tracsport LSU with incidentals. It is known fact that the Tracsport LSU was intensively track tested over a period of 4-5 years & on removal had the appearance of one just installed. So 'fit & forget' as long as the appropriate checks are carried out.

The other thing with having a Titan installation is that the DIYer will be fully conversant with dropping the diff, refitting, dropping the diff, refitting, dropping the diff.........

My Tracsport LSU was fitted October 2020. I ran it for 500 miles then pulled the mag plug & checked the oil. Mag plug had similar build up as in photo which is just finings from the running in process & probably residue that did not get cleaned out properly from the casing.

The oil was slightly discoloured from the running in process so I changed it. Subsequently in October 2021 after 2000+ miles running the same checks were carried out. The plug & oil were as clean as a whistle. The break away force was as when built 25ft/lbs.

On that evidence I have decided to do all the checks, oil, plug, break out every year but change the oil every two years if required.

The oil I am using is Castrol B373 SAE90 GL5. It is very viscous, stinks to high heaven but does the job well. I just cannot get used to a ghostly silent diff !

Link to comment
Share on other sites
ScottR400D

ScottR400D

Posted
Posted

#21 I think most of those with them have used that one.

There's no significant advantage in Ti in this application though the fact that it is a socket fitting could be. 

With the hexagon, you do need a ring spanner to fit and remove but the seal is fine. I find it easier to get at than the original socket type.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share
Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...