Engine, gearbox and diff removal

[Matthew Willoughby]

I am intending to get my gearbox and diff rebuilt over winter. I've not removed the engine or diff before and wondered if anybody was aware of step by step idiot's guides anywhere?

 

The car is a 2009 Sigma Supersport with a type 9 5 speed and Ford diff.

[Wrightpayne]

Hopefully Jonathan will be along shortly with a build manual. Dis-assembly is the reverse of the build ;-)

[Jonathan Kay]

Private Message sent.

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Matthew:- a selection of manuals are available here:- http://www.caterham.dk/Assembly_Guides/index.htm

http://www.caterham.dk/Assembly_Guides/index.htm

[Tom_Arundel]

Where do you live?

[Matthew Willoughby]

Thanks all.  I have the build manual and just wondered if there was anything available to identify the best way to remove everything.  If it's just a case of reversing the build process I'll give that a go.

Tom, I'm in Newark, Notts.

[Geoff Brown]

Matthew #6 - The news is everything will have to come out!

Order of preference subject to others advice: 

Crack hub nuts, Raise on stands at least 18". Remove rear wheels. Remove seats if access to forward Watts Link/Radius arms not sufficient. Remove A Frame (note number of shimming washers at forward attachments) & Anti Roll Bar (allows ease of access to prop shaft bolts). Disconnect prop shaft. Remove wheel speed sensor (if fitted). Wind off hand brake adjustment until handle vertical. Crack lower shock absorber bolts. Remove Watts Linkage/Radius Arms. Disconnect chassis to de Dion flexi brake hose. Disconnect brake caliper pipes. Remove brake calipers, discs/flanges, hubs & ears. Withdraw drive shafts. Remove shock absorbers. Carefully negotiate de Dion out of chassis.

Simples!!

If the back end of your car has never been dismantled before you can reuse attaching parts. The Schnorr washers under the lower cage to diff attachment bolts can be reused at least twice. Nylocs can be reused as long as they do not run down the bolt by hand beyond flush with the bolt end. Spring washers IMO replace in total. 

Some advocate removing the drive shafts complete with hubs, discs/flanges, ears as one component - your choice. But this does mean that you do not get the chance to thoroughly inspect everything & the hub bearings will probably require greasing. If your car is a few years old with average mileage complete dismantling, inspection, cleaning & replacement of certain parts if required is well worth the effort. It just saves having to revisit for something that could have been done at the time.

Refitting in the words of Haynes 'is reverse of removal' where the CC manual can be followed.

 

[Bricol]

I'd only remove it all if it really needs attention because theres a definite problem - box and diff were designed for, and lived for a lot longer in a heavier car after all . . .

[Tom_Arundel]

If diff is noisy it is possible to fix it in situ.

[Matthew Willoughby]

It's a race car and needs a refresh. The 'box is extremely crunchy and the LSD has lost it's pre-load.

[Shaun_E]

When you take the engine out, label all the wires that you disconnect - you can guarantee you'll forget where some of them went!!! Also take photos as you go especially of cable and hose routes. 

[7 wonders of the world]

Ford final drive can be removed much easier..

Rear of car up on axle stands:

rear wheels off, slacken propshaft bolts, calipers off and suspended on coil overs with zip ties, remove 4 bolts securing hub / ear to DeDion tube.

Remove A frame, tie Dedion tube back using rear A frame mount against rear chassis rail

Remove driveshaft / hub/ disc assembly in one,

Jack under final drive, remove top bolt noting location of spacer washers, then two lower bolts, again noting washers, lower final drive out, it done correctly you dont even loose any oil.

 

 

 

[Matthew Willoughby]

Thanks guys. That's just the sort of thing I was after.

[aerobod - near CYYC]

With the BMW diff there is no need to remove the DeDion tube if you remove the anti-roll bar. You also only need to remove the wheel and caliper on one side, taking out the 4 DeDion ear bolts to take out the axle with hub and brake disc. I did this on the right side of my R400D last time.

The diff then has enough space to move downwards slightly to clear the mounts (I left the carrier on mine), then to the right to disconnect the left driveshaft, before lowering the diff out of the car.

[Bricol]

Race car is a proper reason :)

[ScottR400D]

Must have been a little awkward removing the ARB with a wheel left on!

I’m not sure why, for the time taken, you wouldn’t take both wheels off or, to be honest, both drive shafts. 

I also removed the A frame, which I think is essential if your working from axle stands. 

It was taking me about 90 minutes from jacking up the car to having the diff out and about 2.5 hours putting it all back, so it’s not a huge job. 

#9 I’d love to hear how you’d do that, and just why you would want to! 

 

[aerobod - near CYYC]

Peter, with the car lifted high (about 1.5m off the ground), the ARB is easily accessible with the wheels on to disconnect at the spherical joints by removing the clip. The ARB then can be withdrawn sideways after taking the 4 mount bolts out. In any case the A frame has to be removed to have enough space to drop the diff. Takes about 2/3 the time to remove the diff by only pulling one driveshaft instead of both, also reduces the number of nylon nuts that need to be replaced.

[ScottR400D]

Yes, I thought you must have the car higher off the ground, James, but surely you’d take both wheels off?!

[Wrightpayne]

I'd take engine and box out first - much safer with all 4 wheels on the floor.

I kept the cap supplied with gearbox to protect the output shaft - slip this in once the prop is out to prevent the gear oil running out.

[Geoff Brown]

Short cut dismantling is all fine but components that require replacement, overhaul or lubrication will be inadvertently missed. Subsequent dismantling could be avoided by this method - corroded &/or fretted bolts, damaged bushes, greaseless bearings etc. 

For the sake of another half hour per side IMO worth the effort. My car only 7 years old/20000 miles but when I dismantled the back end there were things that needed attention. The sort of things that one would regret not attending to, even in a precautionary way, another year & 3000 miles or so down the road.

Unfortunately having worked in the aircraft industry for the majority of my working life one became automatically accustomed  to checking, inspecting, replacing & servicing components as you proceeded to the subject of your attention. 

[Wrightpayne]

Geoff,

Would you recommend any components on the seven are 'lifed' to pre-empt failure? A good example on a race car is the front stub axles / hubs if the original non uprated type, as these have been known to fail. Shocks are another component worth reconditioning via Bistein.

 

Ian

[Geoff Brown]

Wrightpayne #21 - A good question! The components in the back end are generally 'on condition' except the brake flexi hose which CC recommends changing every four years but with common sense that also could be judged on condition. The list could be endless if you take into account corroded nuts & bolts. Nylocs & spring washers are throwaway items.

The following are highly likely to require attention or replacement any time the back end is dismantled:  A frame bolts, A Frame to de Dion 'race washers', anti roll bar drop link ball ends, anti roll bar rubbers, hub bearings (require re lube every four years), chassis to de Dion brake flexi hose.

Other consideration is the inspecting of the welds & surface of the de Dion tube with a bright light & magnifying glass. Cleaning & inspecting the exposed chassis bars.

Extra checks would involve all bushings.

Of course what you find depends on the age of the vehicle & mileage.

My abiding thoughts are is that whether the car is factory or home built whenever it is dismantled in any shape or form then the imperative is to put it back together as best you can.  Otherwise it is your arse on the line!

 

[aerobod - near CYYC]

With the later "sealed for life" rear bearings, inspection of components on the rear axles and brakes is all that is needed, no disassembly required. No need to remove both axles to remove the diff, if the car is high off the ground. When using the single driveshaft removal method for taking the diff out, even removing both wheels is not needed when working underneath from the centre and  as opposed to the sides, it just doesn't give any necessary additional clearance to the items that need to be accessed.

My car also gets a check underneath for bolt tightness, corrosion and wear when it is up in the air several times a year and check of the tightness of critical bolts before every track event, so with my regular checks there is no unnecessary disassembly required when removing the diff.