Ted_7 Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Anyone have the reference for a 1600K Rover starter 🤔 Mine is ☹️ and I need to order one today 😳 Se7enly, Ted_7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Woods Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Ted, have you done a search through the archives ? - there are problems with K-series starting that can be fixed without needing a new starter Nick P8MRA - Red and Black 1.6K supersport, back on the road at last. See pictures of it being rebuilt here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howe Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Ted, what are your symptoms? ... and, yes, do have a search. JH Deliveries by Saffron, the yellow 222bhp Sausage delivery machine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted_7 Posted March 19, 2003 Author Share Posted March 19, 2003 Sometimes it starts, sometimes not. Doesn't matter if it's warm or cold. This morning after a night in my garage it starts directly. Yesterday I stopped for a few minutes and we had to push the car. After a few kilometers I stooped the dar for fuel, it starts directly. I made a search but there are many discussions and I don't know which one is the good one my technical English is relatively poor so I am not sure to find the right answer ☹️ Se7enly, Ted_7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howe Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Ted, I could be wrong here (if so, at least someone will come along and put me right) but I think there are two types of K series starter motors. a). With the solenoid on the top. b). With the solenoid underneath If you have a). look up a cure posting approx. 1 year ago, Johnty Lyons joined in the postings and gave a lengthy course of action, as recommended by Peter C. If you have b) then its the relay route but first, when it will not start, try (as suggested) by-passing with a direct wire to the solenoid from the battery. JH Deliveries by Saffron, the yellow 222bhp Sausage delivery machine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlShack Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Ted I have exaclty the same problem. I have the solenoid on top type, and all I have to do to get it started is wiggle the wires around the solenoid! Not particularly technical, and I;m sure I'll snap one of them one day, but works for now. Worth removing them, cleaning the contacts, and trying again. Cheers Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Green Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Ted_7, If you have the solenoid on top starter, then the symptoms AlShack describes seem to be fixed by re-soldering the actuator wire post joint on the solenoid. If it is the solenoid underneath variety, then I don't know. F355GTS has taken them apart and sussed them out though. He's sent me details, but I've never got around to trying them out. I bought a new starter. If you would prefer to buy a new starter, your alternatives are: 1) Get a new solenoid from an auto-electrician. 2) Get a new starter from Caterham, or somewhere like Brise (in Dartford Kent. Could be expensive. Caterham (and Brise I think) supply a Skoda Octavia starter fixed to a mounting plate which is a Ford pattern, to match the hole on the bell housing. 3) Get down your local establishment that sells a range of starter motors for Fords and work out which of them (usually Sierra) would fit. You want it fairly small. I think that rules out anything Bosch. The "nose" (the bit that goes into the bell housing) of the starter you require, should be about 60mm from the face of the mounting plate to the tip of the nose. Or it least it was on mine. Nick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 We are starting to reach that point of dispair with starter motors! I have read all the recent starter motor threads with interest, but not sure which applies to us. Our well used starter started to play up a few weeks ago. It would spin, but not engage with the flywheel - the cog was not being 'flung' out enough! A couple of quick re-twists of the key would eventually see the cog engage and engine start. Very rarely - if at all - do we just get a 'click'. Anyway - we got the starter reconditioned only a week or two ago. Once or twice it has 'buzzed' as before, but lats night it engaged, started the engine and then obviously did not dis-engage - a lovely noise that made! Stopped right away, tried again to hear the motor spinning away, but no 'buzzing' ie: the cog was not being engaged at all - not even close! From what I understand the various recent 'fixes' refer to starter problems where the starter just clicks - is that correct? Ours spins. Now ISTR that there are two types of starter (someone at work has mentioned this - not related to caterham starters specifically) where one relies ona helix that the cog is flung out along, and one has a solenoid which pushed the cog out - i am talking in very symplified terms here - is this correct - which one is our caterham starter - it is 'standard', with the solenoid on top - 1.6 k series '96. So does the solenoid/relay fix apply to us, or do we have a lubrication/mechanical problem with our 'new' starter. Getting really fed up with this problem now - along with many others! Tessa rapidly losing faith in the car (our only transport) Will some sort of heat shield between starter and manifold help with any potential heat problem - thinking of that foil covered foam stuff. help help help!! 😬33,000 miles in 15 months! angus@tinyworld.co.uk Caterham pics here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Richards. Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Angus and Tessa Starter motor on Caterham K series is fitted with a solenoid that 'flings' the cog into the flywheel ring gear. Regret from the symptons you describe that the relay "fix" is unlikley to help you. It seems as if there is a fault with the starter and/or solenoid which could be mechanical i.e. gummed up or worn. It could also be worth checking the teeth on the ring gear for damage i.e. the teeth on the flywheel into which the starter is 'flung'. You should be able to see these when starter is off and be able to view all the teeth by putting car in gear (2nd or 3rd) and pushing car to turn engine. If this reveals no obvious problems I'd personally take the car to the people who reconditioned the starter and let them investigate. It could be that the starter is still faulty despite alleged reconditioning. Paul R. C7PPR K series that starts when hot!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Angus - I suffered similar symptoms to you - with the starter not connecting / disconnecting properly with the flywheel ring gear . I simply slackened off the 3 mounting blots and adjusted the position of the starter slightly ( maybe 2mm ) , I found that the best mounting position was if you push the starter towards the cylinder block and up towards the head ...... if you follow . The starter now engages properly on the flywheel each time . hope this helps dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 thanks guys - I'll try it all! 😬33,000 miles in 15 months! angus@tinyworld.co.uk Caterham pics here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordy Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 my 1.4Kss 1995 also fails to engage sometimes. It does not click but screeches, usually starting on the 3rd attempt and is on the list of things to sort. I'll have a fiddle soon and post up my findings but it sounds as if I have the same prob as angus and tessa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted_7 Posted March 20, 2003 Author Share Posted March 20, 2003 Thanks for all your answers ! I'll check that this week-end Se7enly, Ted_7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Oh JOY ❗ I know what our starter problem is. (Fordy - your problem does indeed sound exactly like our symptoms we had on our 'old' starter.) I took our 'new' starter out of the car last night - once I had figured out the right combination of extension pieces, levers and sockets to reach behind for that third bolt - as I pulled the starter motor away from the car a number of 'bits' fell onto the garage floor. HURRAY - a mechanical problem which I can see and understand rather than one of these intermittant electrical issues! Seems the end of the starter motor has fallen apart!! On the 'axle' of the starter motor there is a pressed steel end cap - this was floating up the axle - what looks like a big washer in two bits which should locate it was on the floor, along with 3 little springs, 2 (worryingly) little pins and a few bits of plastic from inside the motor. First thought was that I was looking at bits of my flywheel when I saw the pins. So - back off to get the 2 week old starter motor re-made again. Juts got to hope nothing has fallen into the bell housing. Would of preferred to find 3 pins to go with the 3 small springs. So at the moment I have the old borrowed dodgy-electrics starter motor back in (its our only car) which although it displays all the symptoms of failure that have been described on this thread, at least still starts the car eventually after poking with a sharp wooden stick... grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr 😬35,000 miles in 19 months! angus@tinyworld.co.uk Caterham pics here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jf_renard Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 I don't know the english name, but in french we call it a "free wheel". It's what you can find at the center of a rear bicycle wheel, a kind of mechanical one-way valve. Clear ? There is one in a starter's cog, to avoid the inside of the starter to be centrifugated. It's made of three (ramp+spring+pin) between two concentric cylinders. Clockwise, the pins "climb" the ramps and wedges between the cylinders, so the rotation is transmitted. Anticlockwise, the spring maintains the pins at the bottom of the ramps, the inner cylinder turns but not the outer. So you should have found 3 pins... Concerning the failure of your old starter, I just dropped a post in Ted's forum to help him. You can find it here. Unfortunately, I have not enough time (and technical vocabulary?) to translate it to English... Good luck! Jeff 1990 BDR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted March 20, 2003 Leadership Team Share Posted March 20, 2003 Ted, going back to your original problem - it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference whether the solenoid is on the top or the bottom - both types have exhibited the "clicking" problem. The best fix is the inclusion of a seconadary relay as masterminded by Paul Richards. There appears to still be debate about why this fix works, but work it does - and at nearly £200 for a new starter from Caterham, this mod at a fiver makes alot of sense I've suffered for a few years with the starter problem - used to carry a hammer (suicide if needed) but gave up when I realised the engine did eventually start if I persisted. It didn't matter whether the engine was hot or cold, but definately worse when hot. Fitted Paul's mod a couple of months back, and it has started first time every time since. Check the archives for Paul's mod Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gridgway Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 in an attempt to prove the 'Paul Richards' method to myself, I have soldered in a fly lead to the solenoid feed wire. So when I get the click I hop out and with the appropriate amount of (ge)spitzen-sparken I put my fly-lead on the batt to see if it starts. So far, click-occasions: 2, start with fly lead: 2. So conclusive so far! I'll prob never get round to fitting the relay! Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted March 24, 2003 Leadership Team Share Posted March 24, 2003 some people just don't know when they're onto a good thing ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allegro Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Until last weekend I was plagued with a clicking solenoid and no start. If you put the car in a low gear the rock it, presumably lining up the ring gear to the starter gear then give it a turn it will work. Followed the relay route and now it engaged with a vengeance My solenoid is underneath. Andy Mac C7 GON 😬 Team Langoustine. Hard Core Prawn here 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Richards. Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Allegro Glad it works. Another satisfied customer Graham That's how I discovered it works. If you have the problem it seems to get worse (more frequent) and becomes a real pain, especially when you,ve just spent 5 mins settling in the seat, fastening the 6 point and closing the side screen and have to get out again. FIT THE RELAY!!!! It takes 10 minutes (about the same time as getting out 4 times to use your fly lead!!!). A pity you're so far from Bury or I'd fit it for you (small donation for Nuke the Luke). Thinks....... ....... ....... This could be a nice little money spinner at Stoneleigh!!! Relays fitted in aid of Nuke the Luke????? Relay kits (complete with wiring and instructions) supplied for self fitting. Wonder if anyone will respond to this? Paul R. C7PPR K series that starts when hot!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted_7 Posted March 25, 2003 Author Share Posted March 25, 2003 Obviously, the problem didn't occured since I poste the first message. The starter is working fine, I don't know what happened Anyway, I'll be at Stoneleigh, so if anyone can help me there Se7enly, Ted_7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 The fly lead direct to battery worked for me too on the weekend . BUT - I know that the post on the solenoid is damaged - so is th extra oompf of the battery overcoming this ?? and maybe the root cause is the crappy post on the solenoid ? either way I dont give a fcuk cos it now starts Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Whilst getting our starter reconditioned after misshap invloving non-disengagement, I was explaining this 'fix' to the repair chap. I must stress I was using very basic terms that I was trying to remember from TechTalk, but he confirmed this would work - obviously all those who have fitted it know this already!! One of our problems was that a starter did not disengage properly, and therefore lunched itself. Problem since traced to dodgy connection in the MFU, which so far seems to of fixed it. However, its worth writing here the things he told me to check, in case they are useful to others. (Any electrical stuff here will be in very basic terms!) Not specifically Caterham related, but may be useful - don't want to confuse the issue! As soon as you turn the key and the engine starts, the power to the starter must be cut very quickly in order for it to disengage quickly, before the engine ramps up to speed. Things that might prevent this, in his experience, and in no particular order: i) Spring in the ignition barrel, that 'springs' the ignition key back after you release it on starting. It can break or be weak. ii) Contacts in the ignition switch can be poor iii) check the thin wire (spade connection) for condition - this one goes to the ignition switch. For all sorts of complicated electrical reasons he pointed out that IN OUR CASE this extra relay would actually make the problem of potential non-disengagment worse. However I do understand that this fix is for the much more common 'solenoid click' problem, and this it solves. 😬35,000 miles in 19 months! angus@tinyworld.co.uk Caterham pics here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Angus quote "For all sorts of complicated electrical reasons he pointed out that IN OUR CASE this extra relay would actually make the problem of potential non-disengagment worse." unquote I think your repair chap is talking through his 🙆🏻. The additional relay will prevent the starter problems which you have experienced from re-occuring and will have no detrimental effect whatsoever on disengagement. The relay will disengage in a couple of milliseconds - about 50 times quicker than it takes to turn the key off the start position. Also since you have now sealed up your MFRU, you will have an issue in the future if the MFRU relay gets pitted again as it is going to be much harder to get at it without damaging the casing. You probably need the additional relay more than ever now. If your MFRU had clips on it, there should have been a rubber O ring seal under the lid to prevent ingress of moisture and dirt etc. IMHO, my suggestion would be to not use additional sealant if you have the removable case version of the MFRU as it is always useful to fault find inside the unit if needs be. rgds Chris 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Chris, I hope I have not done the guy a dis-service by not getting my facts right. The 're-sealed' box is only temporary - I think I will get a new one (depending on price!) in case it is not simply a case of the relays being pitted. The MFU we have is not fitted with all the clips, its the other type, so with no sealant there was nothing holding to together apart from the friction fit. Most depressingly I started the car this lunchtime and it 'buzzed' as in the starter cog turned and did not engage. 🙆🏻 🙆🏻I thought this problem was fixed. The problem in the MFU may of been with the fuel pump relay as opposed to the starter relay after all, which would explain the missing, which has stopped. Got all excited that the problem had been fixed - seems it is not that simple after all, and we may well have a mechanical interface problem between starter and flywheel ring gear after all. In your experiance Chris, could the MFU be causing these starter symptons? I think I will try the relay thing anyway, if it won't do any harm. 😬35,000 miles in 19 months! angus@tinyworld.co.uk Caterham pics here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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