R500 Starter Motor

[Pimentel]

Good morning,

can anybody tell me what is the best and where can I buy a Starter motor for a 2003  S.L.R500 .

Best regards

Joao

[SM25T]

K-series ... ask Redline Components. sales@redlinecomponents.co.uk or phone +441883346515

[SLR No.77]

I use the WOSP starter from AES, so far it's been faultless.

Stu.

[m7cooke]

I use the WOSP starter too from AES on my R500 k it's been great 

Mick

 

[anthonym]

Brise.  Talk to Tim Brise.    01322-313761

[SLR No.77]

The Brise is the same starter as the WOSP.

Stu.

[anthonym]

how come? WOSP appears to be an interesting manufacturer in their own right, so a competitor to Brise. 

WOSP say they use the Denso as a base unit ("The majority of our units are based on a high power 1.4kW Denso high torque starter motor which we modify to suit each application and individual requirement.") , whereas Brise make no comment, but they look like different businesses to me, both in the business of construction of the units. I am not clear how to distinguish manufacture from construction. As far as was aware (so this may change) Brise manufacture their units, a process I have watched, but I grant that may rather be assembly from a range of possible components.

When I visited Brise (in Kent not far from CC iirc) I was offered a choice of units one which had an internal solenoid with additional heat protection, although I took the external version because the longer internal one too the extended section closer to the next primary, where as the external can be turned/twisted downwards and away. 

[revilla]

The Brise external solenoid ones have been implicated in a number of cases where there have been odd electrical glitches on starting. Symptoms including the engine refusing to run without throttle for a few seconds after starting or the immobiliser arming spontaneously during cranking. I've seen both of these personally and verified that the fault moved with the starter when swapping between engines. I've also investigated what was happening with an oscilloscope. When the starter is initially engaged you get a transient current load that pulls the battery voltage down. Comparing the Brise with the Magneton, this voltage drop was both deeper and longer lasting. From memory I think the voltage dipped as low as 5V for maybe 100ms. It's all written up on here somewhere. It's too fast to see with a multimeter but it can certainly upset the electronics. In the case where the engine needed throttle after firing, the voltage drop at the "Ignition Sense" ECU pin briefly dropped below the detection threshold causing the ECU to think the ignition had been turned off and triggering the routine that closes the IACV and then winds it open a set number of steps ready for the next start. Until this recycle completed it needed throttle to keep idling as there was insufficient bypass air from the IACV. This symptom is often the first sign of a failing battery with the standard K ECUs as it's a bit marginal even with the standard starter and a weak battery compounds the problem. These problems may not be so relevant to an R500 with no IACV and a different ECU but the transient dropout will still be there and could potentially affect other things in other ways. As I mentioned, the immobiliser spontaneously engaging is one I've seen and in the course of my investigations I spoke to numerous other people who had seen odd electrical glitches on starting with a Brise. Other people however have clearly had no issues at all so your mileage may vary.

[revilla]

Also to add to Anthony's comments, the extra length of the Brise axial unit (with the internal solenoid) can sometimes need a bit more metal removing from the next rib forward on the side of the block to fit properly.

[SLR No.77]

Ha ha all is not clear! I did all the research when I bought it (2017) and the only difference was the WOSP branded version was supplied with a multi-hole mounting flange whereas the Brise version had a single position flange, so no adjustment possible. I chose the WOSP version because I wanted to use the adjustment to get the solenoid as far away from no.1 primary as possible.

Stu.

[anthonym]

indeed not :-)

I chose the BRISE version because I wanted to use the adjustment to get the solenoid as far away from no.1 primary as possible. It came with all the necessary bits as standard. 

I'll ask Tim about the other stuff.

anthony

[admaraujo]

I suspect one uses a potato and the other uses a potato... none are starter manufacturers.

I know for a fact that a refurbished starter lasts longer than newly bought units... What does this tells us about Wosp, Brise or any other?

Wosp or Brise? Who cares if it works.

I suspect a starter refurb every 4-5 years is more important than which manufacturer or rebuilder it comes from.

[anthonym]

Andrew what do you think would be the fix for the current inrush?

Have you tested the WOSP for the same thing?

Presumably, they are identical are they not?

Anthony

edit: I just found the thread you mentioned:

https://www.lotus7.club/forum/techtalk/brise-starter-current-draw-transients

having a read :-)

[revilla]

Haha now I know why you came across the old thread about Pete's loom repair!

I'm not sure there really is a quick fix, other than changing the design of the starter or using a battery with a lower internal resistance / higher CCA rating. You're not going to make the wiring any thicker. I didn't test the WOSP. 

It does look as though the various manufacturers have used various different cores for their starters and sometimes even used the same base models, so what I found may not apply to all / the latest Brise starters and may or may not apply to others, I'm afraid I really don't know. In the cases I looked at I can only say that i had A Brise starter and it behaved in that way, where a selection of standard Magneton starters did not.

For the specific case of the IACV recycling, I think it really was a case of the voltage drop at the Ignition Sense terminal that caused it rather than the ECU as a whole dropping out so some sort of filtering on there might cure it but I didn't look in too much detail at the current drain on that pin - if it is effectively an ignition switched supply rather than a pure voltage input pin it may be rather too low impedance to filter effectively. And it would still leave a lot of other things very marginal.

I'm not sure whether how well the Emerald ECU would handle a transient voltage dropout to that level compared to a MEMS3. You don't have an IACV either. I guess you're not using the immobiliser either? You may well not have a problem at all. I really don't know, I've only got to play with a few specific cases.

[anthonym]

Brise have a fix, they just need a faulty unit to prove it; problem being there don't currently (pun!) seem to be any. So if anyone has one please do contact Tim Brise.

edit: correct, not had any trouble with any of my Brise kit, starters and alternators, BDR and R500, and Tim Brise often answers the phone himself; most refreshing in this day and age when stuck up some Alp needing parts last Summer.