R400D engine issue with EASIMAP pointing to injectors showing high duty cycle value

[SpeedPete]

Hi all,

I'm glad to have become a member of this great community. My first post is about my R400 Duratec which seems to lack power and runs rough until warm, stalling at each traffic light stop if not pushed by giving it throttle. It's a stock 2009 engine which I recently got to get running after annoying trial & error repair attempts by myself (far from being an expert) leading to my engine now having replaced all sensors I could find, new spark plugs and intake gasket as well as the air filter and in-tank fuel mesh cleaned. 

Easimap indicates at WOT a fuel pressure of up to 6 Bar (I'm not aware of where this sensor is and if it's accurate), max throttle site 15.1 (should it be 16?), Manifold Air Pressure around 0.94, lambda 0.76-0.85.

Since the duty cycle goes up to 86% while fuel pressure looks very high to me, I thought that I might have an issue with my injectors (the blue ones) not delivering enough fuel. The low lambda value doesn't seem to support this theory, though. Maybe the orange Bosch 0280156156 injectors would solve the issues?

Without having someone knowledgeable around here in southern Germany, I'd highly appreciate if someone could share his view on this.

Peter

[ChrisC]

Hi Peter

I don’t remember a fuel pressure sensor on the two duratec cars I have worked on with Easymap.  One had a fuel related  problem which would cause it to die without warning.  Eventually Easymap captured real time information showing a lean mixture, and an increased injector duty cycle.  We eventually tracked that to the inertia switch, killing the power to the fuel pump.  

That diagnosis would have been so much easier with a fuel pressure sensor, hence the reason I can’t remember seeing one.

You could test if one is present by connecting Easymap, engine running, pull the plug on the inertia switch and seeing if your fuel pressure drops, if it does not, then you know the fuel pressure sensor is running on a default setting not an actual reading.

Chris.

[SpeedPete]

Hi Chris,

thanks a lot for sharing your insights! I haven't found a sensor myself neither. But I didn't have an explanation for the Easimap fuel pressure values which varied over time, as they would with a sensor providing its input.

I've always wanted to check the inertia switch, but have never been successful in locating it. Is it possible that my car doesn't have one fitted? I guess it's supposed to be near the ECU (the area on this ).

Peter

[Jim 123]

Is it not on the right hand engine bay bulkhead just outboard of the brake master cylinder?

[SpeedPete]

Hi Jim,

thanks for the hint! Searching for pictures of the brake master cylinder engine bay area, I found this picture which seems to display the switch attached to the bulkhead. I definitively don't have such an item near my bulkhead. If it's unlikely to be positioned elsewhere and possible to somehow bypass, then I would assume that it has not been installed in my car (or has been removed due to whatever reason). Then this couldn't be the issue. However, a friend of mine running a car repair workshop informed me that I could have my injectors checked at one of the local Bosch service stations, which I would do to verify that it's not the injectors causing the issues. He said that this would be unlikely, though.http://www.motorverso.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Caterham-SMMT-16.jpg

[Jim 123]

Some owners remove the switch for competition.  Have you tried to reset the TPS ?

[ChrisC]

The car I worked on had it on the other side, that was a 2010, so worth a check.   The only ex-racer I have owned had the switched moved inside the car.  If you don’t have an inertia switch I would fit one, on safety grounds once you have it sorted ;-) 

 

[SpeedPete]

Thanks Chris, for the advice! Makes sense. I will do so, in case I don't find it anywhere else and after I have educated myself on how to install it.

Since nobody seems to have had issues like me being caused by the injectors, I guess that by having verified the condition of one exemplary injector at Bosch in the next days, I can then assume they are okay. It's kind of a relief I probably don't have to buy new injectors, but somehow I was hoping to have found a way to get those bits of power back I feel to be missing. Maybe that car just makes me greedy ;)

Thanks guys!

[SpeedPete]

Hey Jim, sorry, I didn't see your comment. I was not aware that the TPS could be reset? I've got the factory MBE 992 ECU installed. To my knowledge it's not possible to write into its memory, as it's locked by Caterham. I don't remember exactly for which purpose it was, but I had been talking to MBE who told me that even they themselves could not unlock it - not sure how reliable this statement is, though. So far, I didn't find any other feature than reading the live data of the ECU and log it. I've heard of others who adjusted the angle of the TPS by modifying its mount to make it send the signals which the ECU expects. When I tried this myself, I only made the car running worse - might have been due to my lack of talent, though...

[aerobod - near CYYC]

Hi SoeedPete, a few things based on my 2012 R400D experience:

86% duty cycle at WOT is normal on this engine with blue injectors, nothing to worry about.

Fuel pressure values are not measured on my car, 6 bar may be a default value that has no meaning and isn’t really measured.

Your Lambda is on the rich side, which it needs to be at WOT. The 992 tends to be a bit rich, 0.76 at WOT will be slightly down on power, 0.82-0.85 would be close to ideal on a naturally aspirated engine, you may be fouling spark plugs in certain conditions.

Throttle site 15 is normal max throttle (There are 16 sites from 0 to 15), should be showing around 4.7V

TPS at throttle site 0 should ideally be below 0.5 at about 1.35V, if throttle site is 0.6 and above, idle will tend to hunt as the engine will never use the idle values and will round up to site 1 values. You can move the TPS a little, but slotting the holes may help. Adjusting the throttle idle screw may be the issue here if the TPS is good and the idle voltage is too high or too low.

Ensure your ECU ground and any sensor grounds are good, especially if lots of noise on battery voltage trace in Easimap. I ran extra grounds with heavier wire between major ground terminals, the engine and chassis to ensure I had resistance values less than 0.2 ohms between different grounds.

if you are operating at altitudes consistently above about 1000 metres, you may never get the engine running very well and it will run like a dog at 2000 metres. I live at 1250 metres, so had to swap the 992 ECU for a 9A4 and add a barometric sensor. The 992 ECU will see barometric sensor input, but the Caterham map won’t use the input. I ran an additional 15% rich with the 992 ECU at 1250 metres and belched black smoke at 2000 metres.

The default narrow band Lambda values are quite misleading due to the nature of how the sensor works. If it is working correctly it should oscillate between lean and rich values every half second or so at steady throttle when under Lambda control (Lambda state as “OK”). If it doesn’t oscillate, then the sensor or wiring is faulty or fouled. Poor running below half throttle and below about half revs is a symptom of sensor failure. I put in a wide band Bosch sensor with an Innovate LC-2 controller to get accurate Lambda values across the whole engine operating range.

Lots of other things to look at, but hopefully the above is a good starting point.

 

 

 

[SpeedPete]

Hi James,

great to have some reference values thanks to you! My logs show the patterns which you describe as being correct. Lambda and TPS seem to be fine. The battery voltage varies by about 0.1-0.3 volts every 200 ms, sometimes it makes a step by up to 0.5 volts under unchanged engine conditions. I guess that's to be considered fine. I had checked and reconditioned all earth-points which I could find a weeks ago, so I thought this was anyway rather unlikely an issue.

I'm at about 500m above sea level. That's probably far enough below the 1000m mark which you mentioned to be critical.

Maybe I should just have the car's power measured on a rolling road to have some precise knowledge how good or bad the engine's state is or try to join other owners to compare. I wish I was in the UK...

Thanks everybody for your support!

[EEK]

I have a totally different engine, Vauxhall, running an MBE 967 ECU which initially did not have a barometer sensor for altitude compensation. I live at 450m and did note that engine was not the same here as down at lower levels, at 2000m it was virtually impossible to keep running. Fitted a sensor before tackling the alps this year and had no problems up to 2700m.

So I am sure it will depend on state of tune, but don't necessarily rule out altitude.

[ChrisC]

Based on you original post, you sound like you have three problems 

runs rough until warm

stalling at each traffic light stop

lack of power 

I can't help with the lack of power, your going to need to see if you actual have a lack of power or have just got used to the R400.   There was a thread on here not so long ago about a R400D lacking top speed, which I assume is the same thing, which was resolved with a trip to Track N Road rolling road.   They have the Caterham Software, so can change the values/map in the locked MBE and apparently transformed the car for the owner.   Without that facility I guess the only option is a replacement unlocked MBE, if you find a lack of power, or a trip to the UK :-(

I found with my 360R stalling and rough running until warm was cured with an adjustment to the throttle body, and not the way you would expect.    I ended up closing the throttle body (from its original position) using the throttle stop adjustment on the body.   I am no expert, but I suspect the map is driven more by manifold pressure than TPS position at idle, given the lack of adjustment in the TPS.   Closing the throttle butterfly at idle increased the manifold vacuum (you can see that with Easymap), but the strange thing was this improved the idle without any drop off in revs.     

Once I discovered this, I also did it to my friends car that had the inertia switch problem, it also made the idle much smother and more consistent.     

In an attempt to go one further I replaced all the rubber bungs and blanking plugs on my plenum, the originals where just simple rubber, with much more substantial silicon items.   This didn't make any difference, but they didn't flex as much.   Worth a check if you have any perished rubber blanking plugs. 

Finally has you car got a battery isolator?  If not then you will have to disconnect the battery to reset your MBE.   The MBE is permanently powered on the two duratec cars I have looked at.  Resetting the MBE has never cured anything for me, but its worth a try. 

[SpeedPete]

Hey everybody,

I just wanted to let you know that the issue has finally been sorted. While waiting to get an appointment on a rolling road (many around here, but all booked for weeks), I did a few short tours with my Caterham. On one something happened and the engine became no longer drivable with the described symptoms but much more severe. I found that one of the three wires of the TPS was loose at the connector to the TPS. I installed an additional wiring from the sensor to the ECU to test the difference at first. All issues were suddenly gone. So, the wiring / connector was the issue all the time, but I only realized when it became as apparent as one wire falling off completely.

For the time being, I simply soldered the new wire to the TPS leads directly. Later, I realized how difficult it is to get such a connector (and even search for one online, if you don't know what it's called), so kept it like it is until now. 3 spare connectors should arrive in a week or two, just in case.

Conclusion: don't trust the wirings, even if resistance measurements don't indicate issues. And always have a lighter and some solder with you on a tour...

[aerobod - near CYYC]

Glad you have found the problem SpeedPete. I'm strongly tempted to re-engineer the TPS wiring and sensor on my R400D, as I've typically had a sensor fail every 10,000km (likely from vibration) and one cheap no-name eBay sensor in only 500km. There are some aftermarket sensors from the likes of Penny and Giles that should be more robust, the only issue is the complete lack of space in that area to put in anything that is much bigger than the quite low profile Ford TPS.

[Geoff Brown]

SpeedPete,

Looking at the pic of the engine bay your R400D is quite young? The failure of the terminal at the TPS is unusual for a late model as some years ago CC started to fit an upgraded loom complete with plug & TPS to overcome this very problem.

 

[SpeedPete]

Very interesting hint, James! I couldn't find a TPS of Penny & Giles for the standard Caterham Plenum, though. Do they only sell TPS for individual throttle bodies? Those won't fit my engine, I'm afraid.

I had to learn that cheap sensors are not worth the likely trouble they create, too. I now tend to chose products of brands like Delphi, Hella or Bosch. But the Hall-effect type of P&G sound top notch compared to these.

Geoff, the picture does not show my Caterham - it was supposed to clarify where the inertia switch is usually located. Mine doesn't have such a switch installed. My Caterham is a 2009 model with no modifications to the engine so far, apart from a conversion to LH steering and at least one engine in/out job which became necessary after an accident I had. I don't know how to check which type of loom is installed. Since both RH-to-LH conversion and engine removal have not been done by myself, I can't rule out the possibility that the wiring has been damaged in the frame of these jobs, even if I think that this is rather unlikely. Unfortunately such looms are expensive and supply isn't always secured neither. I'd appreciate the piece of mind of having new looms.

[John Vine]

I found that one of the three wires of the TPS was loose at the connector to the TPS.

Ah yes, the infamous TPS wiring problem.  Was it the brown wire, by any chance?

I had exactly this problem with my 2008 R400D.  It's caused by high-frequency engine vibration (a well known feature of the Duratec installation in the Caterham), which is too much for the standard thin-gauge wiring to withstand:

As Geoff says, the long-term solution is CC's TPS Race Sub-loom:

The three wires are silicone-sheathed for flexibility.  It's a pricey upgrade, but it does come with the Ford TPS attached. (And it works -- I've run mine for 8 years and 30K miles with no further problems.)

It's easy to make your own if you prefer.  While waiting for the pukka loom, I made up my own with heavy-gauge domestic mains wiring, fitted with Econoseal connectors:

 

While you're at it, you might also want to upgrade the coil loom to CC's flexi-loom.  The standard wiring suffers in the same way as the TPS wiring.

JV 

 

 

 

[aerobod - near CYYC]

There isn’t a standard P&G TPS for the plenum (which I also have), would require some re-engineering,which I might have a go at next time I have a TPS failure, I have a multi-purpose bench lathe and milling head that I can knock up components on if I get motivated. I may take the plunge instead and put together a roller barrel setup using off-the-shelf Jenvey throttle bodies or a kit from SBD Motorsports, as the Caterham kit has a new ECU, which I don’t need as I have the upgraded 9A4 already.

[Alan Reeves]

Questions John.

The heavy duty TPS part, would that fit a 175 one wonders as the CC flexi loom does not ( I still have a new one at home !). I also bought one for the CSR I had and again it would not fit. Trying to remember why but its not a plug n play for sure.

I bought the heavy duty one as a preventative and would also install the TPS upgrade if its available and fits ( not in stock right now )

Alan

 

[John Vine]

Hi Alan,

Does your 175 TPS and throttle body look like this?

If so, I can't see any reason why the TPS race subloom wouldn't fit.

Re the coil flexi-loom, does your existing coil loom connect to the engine loom via a 6-way female Econoseal like this:

 If so, I can't see why the flexi wouldn't fit plug-'n'-play.   However, if your coil loom is hard-wired into the main loom, you're going to have to splice in an Econoseal 6-way male connector.  That's what I had to do (selection of pics here).

Hope that helps.

JV

[Alan Reeves]

I will look on sunday and see what I have. Glancing at the pics the TPS looks familiar

but I thinks the flexi coil loom will not fit and needs splicing which is 

not going to happen with my ability with wiring..

will revert, ta

.

[Alan Reeves]

John,

TPS plug looks the same but the wiring follows down to just above the gearbox area and is part of the Loom with no plug.

Also the Coil loom is directly into the Loom with no plug ,so splicing n dicing ( in my case ) would be needed

alan

[John Vine]

Hi Alan,

The TPS race subloom is simply a direct replacement for the existing TPS.  The existing 3-way female connector plugs into the 3-way male connector on the subloom. 

Your coil wiring sounds just like mine, so you'll need to splice in a 6-way male Econoseal for the coil flexi-loom.

JV

[mic]

You need to change the plug on the engine loom to use a race TPS.