Battery & Alternator Diagnostics

[Paul Mason]

1.8k, Brise alternator (not sure of model as yet, need to remove to get serial number), Odessy Extreme PC545 battery (battery in clamp lay on its "back", was new in 2015)

Over the last few months, the car has been getting increasingly difficult to start (laboured) and needing time on the charger before it will go sometimes (even with a full charge, still turns over fairly slowly for a while before catching). There has also been some "goo" leaking which has left a white/cream crust on the bulkhead (passenger side).

On Sunday, car charged overnight on Optimate, started car (took a while) did c. 30 miles. Started car again (again, wasn't really happy, but went after 15-20 seconds turning over) did c. 50 miles. Started car again (per previous, not too happy) did another 20 miles or so. Tried to start again and just turning over very slowly and laboured. Attached a booster pack and no joy there, though initially turned over a little quicker. I then "attached" some helpful & burly men to the rear of the car and with a bump got an intantaneous and easy start. Then drove 50 miles. Put a multimeter on battery, showed 11.9v. Tried to start the car and it started (AT WHICH POINT I MAY HAVE LET OUT AN OUTBURST OF PROFANITY AS I MISSED THE END OF THE BLAT!), and it started easier than usual bizarrely, so appeared to have gained some charge? Re-attached multimeter, showing 18.1v running.

Questions are:

1. Does a 18.1v charge when running indicated a goosed alternator regulator, or is it OK if the battery needs a short boost for the alternator to push out a bit more (thought it was limited to c.14.4v)?
2. Am thinking of taking alternator off to get bench tested as the "goo" leak could be linked to the alternator pushing too much electricity at the battery and its getting too hot and leaking as a protest (and possibly have killed it)?
3. Does an Odessy PC545 (dry cell I think) need any special alternator set up, like a smart charge/pulse type alternator which I think are fitted to more modern car/battery set ups?

Apols, I am useless when it comes to electrickery, I'm just wanting to get a little education before I spend anything on replacing the wrong bits (though, whatever the issue, I think the battery is now a goner)

Ta

Paui

[Jonathan Kay]

I wondered when you were going to ask. :-)

Does a 18.1v charge when running indicated a goosed alternator regulator, or is it OK if the battery needs a short boost for the alternator to push out a bit more (thought it was limited to c.14.4v)?

That's a very high charging voltage. The alternator is probably faulty. It needs testing before it gets near another battery.

Am thinking of taking alternator off to get bench tested as the "goo" leak could be linked to the alternator pushing too much electricity at the battery and its getting too hot and leaking as a protest (and possibly have killed it)?

Yes. I'd take the alternator to a local specialist and ask them to test it. They can probably also repair it. If they can't Brise probably can. And if you do it that way rather than replacing it you know that it will fit back on. 

Yes. Most likely sequence is a faulty alternator that rogered the battery..

Does an Odessy PC545 (dry cell I think) need any special alternator set up, like a smart charge/pulse type alternator which I think are fitted to more modern car/battery set ups?

That's an *AGM battery. It doesn't need a special alternator.

There has also been some "goo" leaking which has left a white/cream crust on the bulkhead (passenger side).

It has reached the end of its useful career:.. the accumulating knowledge on replacements is in "Whats the best battery these days?".

I don't know how important it is to use a special conditioning charger. Current CTEKs have a special mode for AGM batteries.

Jonathan

* Despite what they say on Project Binky!

[Piers300]

18.1 volts from the alternator means the regulator has had it and at that voltage will damage your battery.

[Paul Mason]

Thank you both, my course of action is now confirmed - alternator off, tested/repaired and then new battery. Hopefully it will be a fairly cheap repair and should be within my mechanical capabilities to remove and re-fit

JK, did attempt to educate myself via the internet prior to asking......however, all that has served to prove is that when it comes to electrics, I'm useless! POBC to the rescue (again)

The most annoying thing though is not that there is a problem, but that when I conked out, I missed the fish & chips which was the whole purpose of Sundays blat!

[Paul Mason]

Re: replacement JK, I was going to go like for like with the Powervamp Odessy Extreme PC545 as I have the cage and everything already in place (button screw terminals etc) and fairly sensibly priced (£96 plus £7 for delviery)

[Jonathan Kay]

...however, all that has served to prove is that when it comes to electrics, I'm useless!

You were spot on!

But next time I guess you'll intervene at:

Over the last few months, the car has been getting increasingly difficult to start (laboured) and needing time on the charger before it will go sometimes (even with a full charge, still turns over fairly slowly for a while before catching). There has also been some "goo" leaking which has left a white/cream crust on the bulkhead (passenger side).

;-)

Hope you're back on the road soon for one of the greatest meals... in the world.

Jonathan

[Jonathan Kay]

I was going to go like for like with the Powervamp Odessy Extreme PC545 as I have the cage and everything already in place (button screw terminals etc) and fairly sensibly priced (£96 plus £7 for delviery)

I've never been able to discover the differences between their ranges. But that sounds sensible.

How about adding insulating shrouds on the terminals if you don't have them already?

Jonathan

[Paul Mason]

Ha, JK, whist I could forsee a problem necessitating intervention, my innate and abject laziness prevented correctative actions being proactively taken until stood at the side of the road cursing excessively under my breath (my daughter was in attendance) has now forced the issue. 

[revilla]

Just remember always disconnect the battery before getting tools anywhere near the alternator, and always disconnect the negative first and reconnect the negative last (that way, if you spanner touches something normally earthed whilst disconnecting the positive it can't do any harm).

[Derek Batty]

Hi Paul.  Don’t no weather or not you use one but I have a battery conditioner plugged in all the time when  car in garage not used 

Derek 

[Paul Mason]

Will do Revilla, ta. I've heard that after the battery is disconnected and removed you can touch the +ve and negative terminals together to draw out any residual energy. Is this a myth likely to damage me and or the car or is it a known thing? Derek, got a conditioner but don't always leave it on always as been using regularly

[Tony Whitley]

Touching the terminals together is not a good idea, I presume you mean touch the battery cables - the terminals are on the battery.  That won't do any harm but I can't see it doing any good either as I can't think of anything (such as a capacitor) that will be holding charge.

[Paul Mason]

Yes, that's what I mean Tony, the ends of the leads once disconnected from the battery. My electrical knowledge clearly tip top again!

[Paul Mason]

So, and I hope the power of Blatchat can tell me I'm being stupid and have missed the blindingly obvious......but, once all the bolts are loose on the alternator and belt etc off, how do you remove the top bolt that holds the alternator to the block without taking no.1 header off?? Please tell me I'm being stupid and don't have to take the header off......please...

[Jonathan Kay]

Which engine?

Jonathan

[Paul Mason]

K series with a powerspeed 4-2-1 system

[Derek Batty]

Hi Paul.   My battery packed up few weeks ago as you poss no live on iom the battery fitted was a banner one but problems getting one over here.   So went to local.  Auto electrics.   Only one he had was called a leasure battery for large motor bike or mower ?????     Only around £50.   Put one on cos only option    Called to see bloke who does work on most sevens he said it’s not as powerful as   A banner but should be ok.   

My thoughts are.  Given use my seven gets is if it needs replacing every three years to me ok.   

I bought a micro jump start.   Around £90_00.  Which is great it also changes Kay’s phone and sat nav also.  Of come across.  Anybody with problems.   Poss may help 

would love to come across a very expensive Ferrari.  To give him a boost.   And poss wind him up.  Pile of expensive crap even if.  A bit jealous.     But would not  let him no 

All the best       Derek 

 

[Mark Gregory]

........would love to come across a very expensive Ferrari.  To give him a boost.......  

Reminds me of many years ago, neighbour but one had a Rolls Royce, it would not start due to a flat battery, he asked if I could help get it going. Being poor I didn't have any jump leads, but made a set from 20A mains wiring cable by twisting the cores together. I connected them to my Renault 5 battery & with the engine running got the RR started. I was quite surprised it worked, he was very impressed & gave me a crate of beer, which was nice......

[Derek Batty]

Magic    Bet you loved it 

Derek 

[Paul Mason]

Having thought I had rectified my issue with a new alternatoe regulator, doing some post repair review checks on the car and hit a snag. The newly installed plug at the back of the alternator touches the no.1 primary downpipe and has already snapped the plug socket on the regulator. Can't understand how as there's so little movement on the alternator to tighten the belt, I suspect even at the innermost (ie alternator swung out less and closer to the block) it would still interfere? So, now wondering if it's the right alternator for the car......it's a Bosch YLE 102430 (had originally thought it was a Brise unit, but that's the starter). Is this the right alternator does anyone know?

[Paul Mason]

Pic of the issue

[Jonathan Kay]

Is that new electronics on the old alternator or a whole new unit?

(Some can be assembled with the bits rotated.)

Jonathan

[Paul Mason]

New electronic bits on original unit. Now wondering whether the unit is the right one for the car (or could be a slightly larger diameter primary than standard but don't know). I'll speak to the chap who refurbed and repaired to see if the electronics can be rotated

[Paul Mason]

Here's the original pre refurbishment and clearly this issue is now being repeated....

 

[EEK]

I don't have them to hand, but I seem to recall that the first instruction in the fitting guide for a Powerspeed exhaust to a K series engine is that the rear of the alternator may need rotating to allow clearance. So if I recall correctly then chances are it can.