FIA bar really safter ?

[Jimbo]

I recently fitted my FIA roll bar. I don't doubt if I do ever invert I will not regret it. On the other hand, sitting on my bench seat, I can't help thinking that if somebody does drive into the back of my car, then the diagonal will probably make rather a mess of the back of my skull.

The foam padding I fitted seems unlikely to make much difference. Given the poor visibility of a 7, combined with greater stopping power than many cars, I do wonder whether I'm rather more likely to be hit from behind than flip the car. I therefore ask the question, am I statistically safer with a standard bar? I assume whiplash is less terminal than crushed skull?

 

I guess I could alway try do battle with the strange parts which came with the FIA ball, which I understand are some sort of head restraint. I can't recall seeing many other cars with this bit fitted, I assume it can be done?

 

Jim.

 

 

 

[Steve-B]

jimbo see the threads on chitchat over the last few days about flipping. especially the one about the protection offered.

 

decide what your head is worth.

 

makes it a simple thing.

 

should help if you ever sell it as well..

 

 

Steve

210Bhp SV-VHPD click here to see our pictures....

[Graham Perry]

A proper flat head restraint can be incorporated into the bar (I think it comes with it but few fit it ) Expect the head restraint bit to become an issue on here soon as it is supposed to be a requirement for sprinting for 2004 onwards

[Graham Sewell]

I had exactly the same dilemma and ended up specifying an FIA_like rollbar. It did not have the cross brace behind the head and looks rather like the new R500 rollbar. I knew someone would copy my design given enough time....

 

My supplier was still Caterham at the same price as the standard bar, even though I did not get the cross brace or petty strut. I just was specific about my requirements at the time. Although not as strong as the proper FIA, it is certainly better than the standard bar as it has the extra height and is made from the correct materials.

 

Low tech luddite - xflow and proud!

 

Edited by - Graham Sewell on 1 Mar 2003 11:15:48

[Julian Bradley]

Yes!

[Peter R Shaw]

I have also been reading the threads about flying 7's and am now considering upgrading mine to the fia one from Caterham...are there any other ones available ?Sounds like Graham has found one ..(Inow see where the mag got its name from )

 

Road7runner S7S.1.7 X flo

[k.russell]

Jimbo, put some tillets in

[aclucas]

I got those funny bits out for the FIA bar the other day. Looked at them and tried to find anywhere that looked sensible to bolt them too and then gave up. Anyone got a picture of what is supposed to happen?

 

Alan

 

N7CTR 1.8VVC

 

[se7enmad]

What do you mean by funny bits- are you referring to the bottom end (bit) of the petty strut?

 

 

 

Antonella

1998 Caterham Classic

(Malta)

 

my site here

[mav]

He is refering to the head restraint thingy

[kodiak]

we were told to put the head restraints in even though we had the tillet seats ( for roadsport championship) - something about the top of the tillet seat potentially snapping in an impact.

mark

[Mr Locust]

Does this mean that the head restraint plate should be 'hard' up behind the seat headrest to support the seat in an accident or should it be padded and used as a headrest in it's own right?

[Sheds Moderator]

If you are in any doubt I suggest you cast your mind back to the TV docu on road safety in Lincolnshire a year or two back. They showed a red 7 being craned out of a ditch, upside down. The non-FIA bar was crushed flat. Needless to say the driver was killed.

 

Me? I like my full cage!

[aclucas]

Sorry, forgot to tick notify by email....

 

I've worked out what happens with the petty strut. What I have (second hand car) are two parts. The first appears to be a head rest - it has a loopy bracket to bolt round the FIA bar and then a bend and then a big flat plate. This I presume from further discussion goes to behind the drivers head.

 

The other part is another loopy bracket to go round a bar with a long threaded part on the end of the stick. Will take some photos and find out it's exact name from the packet. when I get home if no-one knows what it is.

 

 

 

N7CTR 1.8VVC

 

[John Howe]

Graham, does you bar, without the diagonal, still have FIA approval?

 

JH

Deliveries by Saffron, the yellow 222bhp Sausage delivery machine

[Mr Locust]

I thougt the petty strut was the forward bracing bar and the headrest the exhaust clamp / big plate thingy.

 

Am I losing it?

 

The bar would need some sort of approval number as per the diagonal one to indicate FIA approval.

 

Edited by - Mr Locust on 3 Mar 2003 12:02:04

[Graham Sewell]

John,

 

There are no FIA badges on the bar - so I doubt that it is approved for racing. I am not sure about the view of the club on track days as it is of the correct height/material. However, I never take mine on the track so that is a moot point. My concerns were, that having bench seats, I was more likely to get brained during a rear-end shunt than to roll the car. So I chose my compromise accordingly.

 

If safety is paramount - don't get out of bed. Nowhere is truly safe and you have to live with your perceptions of which risks are worth taking.

 

Low tech luddite - xflow and proud!

[Old Septimus]

I bought mine (without diagonal) from Aley in 1983 and it was described as a 'Lotus 7 FIA spec rollover bar'. I assume that on historic grounds it still qualifies. It's got the drillings to check wall thickness.

[PeterS]

Jimbo

For a real frightener, re-read Roger Green's description of being rear ended, whilst wearing a helmet, on the open road. He had gouge marks in the helmet afterwards!

I find that the helmet restraint would force my head forward all the time, especially with a helmet on, so I didn't fit it: instead I have wrapped the diagonal bar in pipe insulation which I hope will give some cushioning in the case of an incident.

By the way, Roger knew the incident was about to happen, and was able to brace himself to minimize the head movement. How many of us would remember to put our head back under these circumstances? I'm afraid I might tense everything for the impact, including my stomach muscles, and so end up pulling forward rather than back. Roger has race experience, so maybe he has more knowledge of being shunted.

In normal tin tops, I find the head rest is so far from my head when I am driving, that my neck would probably have been snapped by whiplash before my skull made it to the restraint.

It is interesting to watch the dummies in test crashes, to see what happens to the different parts of the body after impact.

I am still not convinced that going for a roll over bar without the diagonal is the right solution. After all, if you are going to invert, you are probably going to hit with the side of the roll over bar before you get completely upside down. It would be a bummer if the lack of triangulation caused it to lean over and reduce the height of protection.

[robmar]

Pipe insulation are you sure you wouldn't be better off withthe properly designed roll bar padding

 

if it is that much of a concern then get a decent seat with a head restraint too, to stop head coming into contact with the bar.

 

int he end if safety is your number 1 priority then don't even get out of bed

 

however if your number one priority is to continue driving your 7 and you are concerned about rolling your car then get a full cage

 

rob

[PeterS]

Rob

Maybe I've missed a trick here. What is the difference between the two types of padding (apart from being "properly designed")? I was just improvising (in my ignorance) to avoid head contact with the metal bar.

You are absolutely right that safety is a compromise, and that the full cage is better for safety if less practical for ordinary use. But the original point about the proximity of the head to the metal and what to do about it still remains. Roger was in a car with a full cage when he had his accident. Much of the discussion to do with roll bars has been to do with height. Protection of the head against contact with the bar/cage during the incident has been less often debated.

[robmar]

not sure about what the exact differences are but I know youcan get it from places like DT, saefty devices etc

 

I am guessing the difference is the the FIA have looked at it and approved it based on their criteria for pratection (what ever that may be, impact absorbption, fire retardness etc etc) Vs something designed to keep the heat in your water pipes well insulated

 

Do not think it is that expensive

 

rob

[Peter Carmichael]

Pipe insulation is generally too soft for the job.

 

Have spoken to a neuro surgeon about this sort of thing and he has seen too many vegetables that used to be young, bright people. Padding is very important.

[Mr Locust]

In terms of calculations for FIA/MSA I thought the requirements of the bar itself are the fundamental ability to withstand forces i.e. Xg longitudinal, Yg athwarts, Zg when the car is fully inverted etc.

 

As I recall (wait for the barage of contradiction) the blue book lays out these basic criteria (in diagrams of stays, diagonals, fixings etc) and if they are met no approval is required.

 

If, however, something away from the basic designs is required the individual design must be submitted for approval with calculations.

 

Fundamentally the caterham FIA bars deviate on two areas and as such require a special case;

 

1. Main bar is not vertical

2. Backstays make an angle of less than 30 degrees with main bar

 

The calculations submitted for the FIA type bar are obviously appropriate as the design has an MSA/FIA approval number on the (Arch) label on my bar. Although I do not know whether this is with or without the strut fitted.

 

Once you have gone through the decision process by which you determine that an FIA bar is required you stop you being squashed (either for regs or personal preference), you then move onto the 'softer' issues of trying to minimise whiplash and head injurys from hitting the bar etc. There is only so much that can be practicably done otherwise you'll be driving a bouncy castle, not a seven.

 

When I was rear ended and pushed 200yds down the road by a Vectra last summer, my Locust had no bar fitted. THAT FOCUSES THE ATTENTION WHEN YOU ARE WONDERING IF ITS GOING TO FLIP.

 

Don't make the assumption that you can make it 100% safe - you cant. People still get killed in Volvos in spite of their hype.

 

Graham - a conscious decision for enhanced safety but without all the inconveniences - good call.

 

Rob - absolutely right - that day I should have stayed in bed, but didn't. I took the Locust instead of the Omega and nearly got flattened - thats life.

 

 

AAAAAAHHHHH[/rant off] 😬

[Mr Locust]

OOPS - got really carried away and pressed the post button twice

 

Edited by - Mr Locust on 3 Mar 2003 17:53:20