2018 Trackday Safety Requirements (includes rollover bar content)

[ChrisC]

Somewhat disagree, they are scrap if you want to do L7C track days.   I had done plenty of MSV trackdays with the standard bar, there are plenty other trackday organisers out there. 

[JNC]

Don't get fooled into thinking the track day Rollbar is the B all and end all !  injuries still happen !

[SLR No.77]

"Somewhat disagree, they are scrap if you want to do L7C track days.   I had done plenty of MSV trackdays with the standard bar, there are plenty other trackday organisers out there"

So use them.

Stu.

[AntonyH]

Thanks to James and the team for not only undertaking this work, but also for the monumental task of going through 147 pages of report so that we don't have to.

[Mechanical Moz]

Just read the LF article and feel it's a bit of a shame the report isn't being made available.  I'm sure there are plenty of members like myself who are engineers or have an interest in engineering that would find it  really interesting! 

Even just having quantified results might help members in the future who are considering upgrading make a more informed decision.  Bar A had a deformation of X mm at Y load and failed at Z load etc.

Maybe there are NDA's or similar in place which prohibit the club saying anything more detailed than this bar is stronger than that bar?

Hey ho, time to start looking forward to the new club trackday season. 

[ChrisC]

As I have been for many years.

[Rod Thonger]

Hello James.  Many thanks to you and the team for the work you've all put in on our behalf.  These matters take up a lot of time.  As the owner of a Lotus Seven s4 with standard rollbar, the discussion is somewhat academic to me unfortunately.  Nevertheless, out of interest, some questions - 

1  are there any examples available of the effectiveness of roll bars in accidents, using any of the standard and FIA examples?

2  has any attempt been made to assess the likely results of the roll bars under stress in various day-to-day scenarios?

3  following on from 2, some sort of assessment presumably was done to give a starting point.  As you say, you can't reduce the standard without opening up liability issues, but is it possible it was over-engineered in the first place?  A higher standard is presumably going to be adopted each time the question is reviewed.

cheers/Rod

[Shortshift]

Rod

Happy to make a response although I'm not sure that I can provide much in the way of helpful commentary:

1.  I am not aware of any formal studies into these aspects.

2.  I am not sure what you mean by 'day to day' scenarios.  The test that we used is an internationally recognised standard that assesses the ability of a rollover bar to withstand an impact force, based on vehicle mass, that is applied to a defined point on the bar.  Testing with recognised standards enables ready comparison and repeatability of test outcomes, which is very important, but we all know that in the real world no two incidents - irrespective of whether they may be road or track-based - are ever exactly the same!

3.  I can't comment in any meaningful way about absolute performance, as mentioned in the Lowflying article.  The decision reached by the Management Team was based on the Working Group's evaluation of the comparative performance of the various rollover bars, with the performance standard of the 1996 trackday bar being the threshold for acceptability for the reasons I outlined.

Sorry that I'm not able to add significantly to what has already been written.

James

[Ian B]

Thanks James.

I'm only asking as the original "advice" given that influenced the 1996 MT decision appears to have been lost and some was not in writing, which resulted in some mis-informed and inaccurate statements being made to the MT in more recent years when the matter has arisen.

I'm therefore keen to confirm that the legal and H&S advice is from independent sources that are qualified and legally able (ie covered by professional indemnity for their advice) to provide it. 

Therefore can you confirm that all the legal and H&S advice taken into account by the MT is:

1. in written form
2. from independent sources not connected with the Club
3. held by the Club's registered office for future reference and inspection if required
4. from legally accountable sources with the appropriate PI insurances

I'm sure that you would agree that these ought to be the minimum requirements in a matter of such importance both to the Club and it's Directors, and I trust this is the case.

[Ian B]

I also think it's unfortunate that the full test results are not being made available to members.

This can lead to some unsupported assumptions and conclusions (as evidenced above).

For example the data may simply indicate that one bar type was only "less strong" than another bar type by 0.1% in one direction.
The statement that one bar is stronger than another would still be true, but whether that difference is material to any particular member given their risk tolerance and use, is not possible for them to determine without the full results.
This risks members becoming alarmed that their bar could be significantly weaker, when it may not, or assuming a particular bar is good for nothing as evidenced in some of the above comments. 
It's only possible to make an informed decision with the full data to hand.

[SLR No.77]

Please can someone send out for more popcorn

[JNC]

Stu ! Just because what you read is not to your liking please refrain from silly childish remarks !

[myleftf00t]

An interesting article, and whilst I accept the decision I am left disappointed that I am excluded from club track days due to having the standard fit bar.

 

 

 

Contrary to your article we don't all have the funds to purchase a new bar, let alone fit it. I personally would like to try a track day or two that is exclusive to 7,s without battling with every Tom, Dick and Harry in his Golf GTI on an alternative event.

 

 

 

Would the club consider the possibility of running some absolute beginner days that allow standard bars so I and others like me can have a go, decide if we like it or not and then we can change our bars if it's something we want to do more of.

 

 

 

Yes I am aware I could hire a car for a track day but again the cost is frankly prohibitive to myself so not something I will be doing any time soon. I just think that if you want more people to get involved and take part in events then you need to find a way of creating an initial trial option before people have to go to the additional expense.

 

 

 

And before anyone says I should change the bar anyway, yes it is something I'm considering but unlike our current government I don't have a magic money tree so have to save up, but it would be nice to join some club events in the meantime.

 

 

[SLR No.77]

"Stu ! Just because what you read is not to your liking please refrain from silly childish remarks !"

Kettle calling teapot me thinks! I thought my happy wavy face may have suggested a tongue in cheek remark, but ho hum.

[JNC]

Stu just because I neglected a smiley face don't throw your dummy out the pram !!  That was my thought of you pots and kettle  xx just a bit of fun at the cost of the Rollbar police 

[Shortshift]

Emma

I know exactly where you're coming from.  One of the ideas that the Management Team considered was a relaxation of our requirement for the trackday bar at a novices event.  Picking up on your point, we want to make our events accessible to as many members as possible, but this has to be done in a way that also accommodates our broader responsibilities. 

Unfortunately, though, there's a logical argument to say that rollover protection standards need to be just as high for novices as for any other trackday participant; indeed, it might even be argued that a newcomer to track driving could be at greater risk than a more experienced driver...  So, much as we would have liked to have come up with a different solution for those who want to 'test the water', so far at least we haven't been able to do that.

I'm not completely out of ideas on this front but, for this year at least, I don't have a solution to offer to Club novices other than to encourage you to fit a trackday bar and come along to our Rockingham Park Novices Event.  Sorry I can't offer more than that right now.

James

[myleftf00t]

Thank you James for the reply. Hopefully the management team can come up with a workable solution. It's just a shame that you went to the trouble of having the intro to track days session which was great and I really enjoyed finding out all about the whole experience but yet I and others like me still can't actually test the water properly with the club, without a fairly hefty outlay. Whilst I wait I will keep my fingers crossed for a lotto win so I can get my bar changed sooner.

 

 

[TomB]

There not that expensive in the scheme of things, a similar cost to a set of tyres, and they sometimes come up secondhand if someone is upgrading to a cage. I’d upgrade anyway for the increased safety for general use - roll overs aren’t restricted to track use, then you can do club track days.

A friendly club member or two might help fit the bar for a bacon butty and a few rounds of tea if you asked for help 

But horses for courses.....

[Comp Sec]

While only the working group has waded through the report and the data, the most telling point to me as an MT member that the decision which has been reached is the right one, is the fact that James as detailed in the article was a staunch believer in that it was a time for change and that the new standard ROPS would be sufficient.

The fact that James has seen and reviewed the full report with the rest of the working group and has come out the exact opposite of how he started says to me that the difference in performance is not insignificant, and in fact I'd not be surprised if the level of difference was very significant !!!

Thank you to all those in the working group for a very professional and considered approach to a very thorny subject.

[AndrewE]

First of all I think the decision to commission a comprehensive study was the right one, realising that as with these things the result will never please everyone.

But remember that the study looked at whether any other ROPS, using one of four roll bars alone, were better under strict analysis than the stated minimum of the 1996 era 'FIA' bar

Whether that minimum is the right one is moot as the Club could in no way going forward agree to a 'lower' standard due to potential liability issues 

I think we should be proud that 'our' club has decided this approach and should accept the results

As with most things in life there are rules and sometimes you may not agree with them but if you want to play you play by the rules

I do have a couple of questions though

1. The report was reviewed by a few 'engineering experts' - how were they chosen and does the club have a record of capability within its ranks (interest here as a Fellow of the IMechE with 30+ years automotive experience) Not that I wanted to be involved per se but it would be interesting to know our collective capability (BUT I don't want to divert the theme of this thread!)

2. in reference to the cost being a limiting factor for those that do track days - I find that a bit strange. We all have budget limits and constraints but I would guess none of us have a 7 as a daily driver so it is a 'toy'- 'FIA' bars are not cheap but can be found used for about £125 (I know this for sure, although you do then have to think about boot cover, hood etc). I don't know how much a track day actually costs but I am guessing with fuel, tyres and entry and the costs of getting kitted out with suit and helment the decision to attend one is not solely down to the cost of a bar. 

[Rod Thonger]

Thanks James.  Your point 2 was what I was looking for.  Regards/Rod

[myleftf00t]

I agree that to most people the car is a "nice to have", in my case it replaced a "nice to have" motorbike as due to injury I couldn't ride it anymore. It is however also a "nice to have" I saved up for, for a fairly long time. Yes you can pick up second-hand bars, and yes I expect if the time came I could probably get some help to fit it. However I then need to look at if my wet weather gear still fits the car and potentially replace that, fortunately I already have a helmet and I was not aware there was a requirement for a race suit? I am not saying that if you want to get properly involved in track days that you shouldn't upgrade your kit, in which case you would probably be looking at upgrading far more than just your roll bar. But those that would like a try, amongst 7s only with possibly just the issue of borrowing a helmet from somewhere currently don't have many options other than to go elsewhere, which to me doesn't feel like the ideal for a club.....essentially pushing people away.

 

 

[Jonathan Kay]

A friendly club member or two might help fit the bar for a bacon butty and a few rounds of tea if you asked for help...

I was wondering about this. Would offer of a space and tools and sustenance help anyone make the change?

I'll offer those in South Oxfordshire.

Jonathan

[Steve Cragg]

I guess the other option for encouraging first time track days for owners without the required bar would be to find (trusting) fellow owners and sign up as a second driver on a club track day.

Maybe the club could even encourage this by asking for volunteers and waiving second driver fees for first timers?

Steve

[MadCat52]

My thanks also to James and the team for the significant work that has been put into updating the trackday safety requirements.

Particularly grateful that temptation has been averted to update the TSSR with even greater mandatory restrictions (e.g. compulsory side impact bars), and that these have been confined to a 'recommendations' section.  Slight concern that at some point in the future the 'what if/liability' argument could put pressure on these to become mandatory requirements?  It's a similar concern to the now mandatory requirement to use halo's on F1 cars - how long before that becomes compulsory on lessor formulas?

Great sympathy with Emma and others who are looking to try before committing to considerable expense and hope the club can find a way to help those making the transition - invest in a couple of club owned trackday cars that can be booked out maybe?

Novices could use non L7C trackdays, but I've avoided these for a few reasons:

a) you miss out on the club/ownership comradery and assistance

b) the standard of driving i.e. avoiding the 'enthusiastic' GTi youth

c) When/if things go wrong, I've marveled at how well our cars survive in car to car crashes I've seen watching caterham racing on TV or at trackside - I suspect mainly because of the similar masses involved.  Not sure I'd want to be T-boned by another trackday car weighing 2 or 3 times more!

Bob