Roll Bar Debate 2018

[Bricol]

'Cos I was bored, I just checked a few track day companies websites about what does the car need to be like - and the only thing I could find for open top/Caterham type on several sites, was for the occupants to have to wear full face helmets.

No written requirement on their websites for any roll-bar . . .

 

[Jim 123]

Andrew IMO your idea sounds to me worthy of keeping open for any cost / benefit study in future.  My fingers remain crossed that our MT can come up with something that feasibly satisfies the expectations of the membership.

[Shortshift]

Reference Ivaan's post above (#22):

On our Club trackdays there most definitely is scrutineering.  It's a self scrutineering process that is well detailed (on the website and in links that are provided when booking trackday places) and all members that participate in our events sign documents to confirm that they have read, understood and complied with the requirements...

This is a serious business; no-one should sign the trackday disclaimer and indemnity forms without understanding what they have put their names to, including their own obligations relating to the need to have performed specific checks before taking to the circuit, to observe stipulated standards of on-track behaviour and to ensure compliance with identified requirements.

James

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Wrightpayne:  (Ian)

Your point about clearance is well made and this particular point has been made very clear in LowFlying.  I support it fully.

Firstly in 2002: http://lowflying.lotus7.club/2002/2002_06_04_Safety.pdf

Again in February 2010: I'm sorry, I haven't a digital file of this at the moment (this is being addressed)

And subsequently in 2013: http://lowflying.lotus7.club/2013/2013_12_03_RollBars.pdf (this one is less specifically about clearance).

 

However, James' point about self-scrutineering is important.  Maybe participants should buddy up and scruntieer each other - or perhaps check at your local area meeting.

 

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Ivaan: (Clive)

Your point about harnesses is also valid: This was also covered in LowFlying http://lowflying.lotus7.club/2015/2015_09_02_Harness.pdf

Again the buddy system is very helpful but in simplest form, if you can move your trunk, your harness isn't tight enough (I think that's about right)

[Wrightpayne]

GJT,

At best those articles are > 2 years old. Is it the responsibility of new members to read old material? I think not - rules should be issued prior to an event and adhered to at point of risk.

The thing I cannot comprehend is why some rules are applied without exception and others seem to be optional. I think having your head above the roll bar is more dangerous than having a non approved R500 bar and your head 2" below. 

The mitigation seems to be it is the drivers responsibility to ensure they are below the 2" imaginary line. Why not just say it is the drivers responsibility to ensure they have a suitable roll bar?

So far I've not seen any valid point put forward that satisfactorily explains why these two rules are applied differently?

Ian

 

[JNC]

I am sorry James ! Self scrutineering  that hardly sounds a proper and right ?  Would you ask a Robber to look after your life savings !! Scrutineering needs to be done by the person who is in charge of the day not the driver ! 

Does this explain why there has been so many photos in Lowflying this year of drivers to tall for their Rollbar ?

[AndrewB]

I asked that question a year ago Ian. 

With the issue of MT members potential facing charges or a law suit then surely every safety requirement has to be policed by those who would face charges, or, if the disclaimer is good enough to cover for a person sticking their head out of the top of the car then the disclaimer has to be good enough for the roll bar aswel. 

I would attend L7C trackdays if I could use the car I took to donnington last year with BookATrack / L7C.

  

 

[SLR No.77]

It's always noticeable that the people who argue for the rollbar rule to be relaxed ... don't have FIA bars. Probably to be expected.

Regarding self-scrutineering, this would be the norm at any track day for a substantial number of safety aspects, tread depth, tire pressures, brake condition etc. It used to be the case for L7C trackdays that we had a mass of paperwork related to self-scrutineering but thankfully this has been dropped, bringing the L7C events more in line with Bookatrack et al. These are not competitive or timed events so there is no need to have an official scrutineer. However, because L7C days are only for Lotus and Caterham Sevens, if there is a known weakness IMHO it should be addressed in the requirements for taking part in the event, the standard rollbar was one such weakness. This would not be the case with a more general track day organiser/company where the variety of cars on track would not have a common known weakness. There may well be other owners clubs for specific cars that could have there own specific requirements.

Remember also that the diagonals added to the FIA bar will aid the lateral strength of the chassis even without the protection of a side impact protection bar.

Stu.

[JNC]

Stu you state the standard Roll bar is a weakness ? Are you talking about the bar fitted as standard to the 620 ? The fastest road car CC make the one they take members of the public for fast laps ? It can’t be !! Then you state the club dropped all that unnecessary paperwork to  be aligned with other track day providers ! How did the insurers feel about taking a backward step by not doing the paperwork ? 

[Shortshift]

No John; in response to the robber analogy that you used, the concept of self-scrutineering (which is the accepted industry-standard approach, though we document what is required in more detail than most trackday operators) is the equivalent of asking you to be responsible for your own life savings...  

James

[SLR No.77]

John, you need to read my post properly. 

• I refer to the standard bar as the base level lightweight bar, I do not have knowledge of what is fitted to the 620R, but if it has a special bar it is obviously not the standard bar.
• I didn't say the club dropped the paperwork to bring it in line with other track day providers, I said "we had a mass of paperwork related to self-scrutineering but thankfully this has been dropped, bringing the L7C events more in line with Bookatrack et al", that is not the same thing.

Stu.

[Wrightpayne]

Stu,

I have a roadsport cage on my car. I dont think anyone is advocating use of the old spindly standard offering from Caterham. There have been newer more robust bars developed, as used on the 620, that lacks a diagonal so not approved for track days. It is this bar the debate is about.

Ian

[gileshudson]

Caterham Cars website lists a "track day rollbar" under Options for the 620, so they're boasting nothing about the capability of the standard bar they supply

[Grubbster]

While we're at it shouldn't we be considering mandatory 4/6 point harnesses and HANS? Much more likely to have a front-impact collision with a barrier than you are to roll a car. I don't think I've ever seen a rolled 7 on a trackday (apart from one of my fellow academy drivers - but he was treating it as a test day) but I have seen a few go head-long into barriers.

I can understand the management team's position of not wanting to be seen to be going backwards on safety, I don't know the legal ramifications of doing such a thing if someone has a serious injury that could have otherwise been prevented (in theory at least). My personal view is that people going on track have to take responsibility for their own safety. If you really want to minimise the risks then don't go on track! Next best is to have a full cage (padded), 2" head clearance, side impact protection, 6 point harness and HANS, fireproof clothing etc. Then you could say FIA bar with petty strut (to be compliant) is next best. It is all down to risk mitigation.  Risk of rolling on a trackday is very low but clearly the impact could be quite high, but don't forget there are other risks as well.

My simplistic view is that if a car is suitable to be used on trackdays managed by the likes of BaT, MSV, GoldTrack etc then it ought to be when run by the L7C (with appropriate indemnity forms in place).

[JNC]

Giles, CC sell track day Roll bars as options on all cars it's a win win position for them ! As all cars are supplied new with the open type with no cross bar because the cross bar fails the IVA test due to restricting rear view ! And as I've flagged up CC use open type for public use and the club advertise car insurance on the website and LF of a 620 airborne with a dodgy open type Roll bar but the driver is below the bar .

[SLR No.77]

Ian, the "standard" bar has to refer to anything that is not listed as "FIA" or "trackday roll bar" (assumed to be the FIA bar). There have obviously been multiple versions of this over the years, live axle, de Dion, SV, 620R, but all have not carried the FIA approval rating. We don't know what bars Paul or Andrew (for example) have therefore it should not be assumed that "standard" refers only to Caterham's latest offering.

The recent bars (and I think the SV) appear to be of sturdier construction but it would still need to be shown how their strength compares to the FIA bar, and even then it would need to be determined if lesser than the FIA whether it would be acceptable. IMHO opinion the more recent thicker section bars are only that way because of appearances, the marketing department likes them. Just my opinion and I'll prepare myself to be flamed ... obviously in my full Nomex 3-layer FIA rated suit 

Stu.

[Jim 123]

A couple of comments that may or may not be helpful.

Regarding the term "industry standard" which is being argued in this thread by those who are both pro and non-pro the roll bar change proposal.

I think this is maybe a bit misleading in terms of any L7C decision. As far as I know there is not a "Track Day Industry", it is a number of apparently unconnected race track based entertainment providers.  There is no collective self regulation of these entertainment providers (I am not criticising them).  There is no trade body, and no published minimum standards. 

Regarding self scruitineering, last year at Combe on a non-L7C track day I saw a Thrifty Van Rental VW Caddy giving it some welly.  The load area behind the driver and passenger had some rather solid unrestrained objects of cargo.

[Ivaan]

Depending on what tests the MT have asked for, we could open up further problems.

If back to back test simulations show that the current FIA bar ( double crossbar  ) performs better than the CC standard, then I expect the MT will want to spec that bar for track days.

It's possible to test performance at failure, but who can say what forces are at play during a rollover incident. One bar might outperform the other in difference aspects. What about all the older bars, with single diagonal and little provenance?

I guess we'll just have to wait and see 

Clive

[Shortshift]

Sorry Jim - there is very much an industry and there is a trade association as well.  Not that I think that's material - but what is accepted practice is relevant. 

If you come to a Club trackday you'll not only find a rather distinctive 'Club atmosphere' but, also, that we take all aspects of planning and running the days very seriously; it seems to result in a good mix of high standards (safety, process and organisation) with lots of fun.  Please don't judge us by what you may have observed elsewhere and do, please, come along to one of our events - if only as a passenger, perhaps, in the first instance, and see if you get the bug.

James

[malcolm1sim]

What about The Association of Track Day Organisers, has that ceased to exist?

If not, bet they are watching this with interest, if not they should be.

Perhaps the club needs to be a member, we do not appear on the list of members
​on website at present.

Malcolm 

Damn, I had told myself not to enter this debate!

[AndrewB]

I bought my kit in 2013.  It is an SV if that makes a difference in terms of the type of standard roll bar which would have been supplied by Caterham.  The picture below shows how the lowered seats and my general lack of height leave me sitting in my car.  

 

 

[Jim 123]

Clive as I understand it, the diagonally braced latest bar is not an FIA roll bar unless it has an homologation certificate attached to it.  The self adhesive homologation certificate is not supplied by Caterham when you take delivery of the roll bar / vehicle, but it can be purchased retrospectively from the parts supplier for £25.  To also add my own experience, maybe a one off, but there can be very significant manufacturing variances between new supply FIA bars.  I have received a bar with a certificate that I flatly refused to fit.  

This whole thing is a bag of worms, I think we need to all work with the MT to understand all of the issues.

 

[Shortshift]

There seems to be some confusion, but a summary of what is required is on the website.

Not sure if I know how to post links but try this:  rolloverbar linky

James

[Grubbster]

Clive as I understand it, the diagonally braced latest bar is not an FIA roll bar unless it has an homologation certificate attached to it.

And not FIA compliant without a petty strut fitted.