Roll Bar Debate 2018

[JNC]

Stu no fireproof suit needed ! Lol  CC stated the bigger bar is made from cold drawn seamless steel so not like the old type of seamed tubing .

At the end of the day as David would say the club has spent time and money and effort to get an answer and hopefully draw a line under this long running gripe , Although on the way has uncovered other poor practice of L7 trackday ( Helmet clearance, and Self Scrutineering ) these In my opinion need urgent review and policing .

[AndrewB]

I have just measured my rollbar diameter and it is 45mm.  I can't however measure the material thickness.  It seems to lean forward not that I had noticed before.

[Mechanical Moz]

My car had a single diagonal bar fitted when I bought it.  Only when I changed the rear dampers, 5 years and a handful of club trackdays later, did I discover the additional fixings were never fitted.  Assumption is the mother...

[Jim 123]

James, re #45 I stand  corrected, I now know that there is an Association of Track Day Organisers.  

However having visited their website, I can see zero evidence of any, as I stated, "industry standard" relating to roll bars. Which is the point I was trying to contribute earlier in an unwelcome effort to distill noise out of  this thread. 

(Let's not get further off topic with a debate around what you mention in #45 as "accepted practice" which is something different).

Thanks for your suggestion that I attend one of your Track Days to experience the "rather distinctive Club atmosphere." I'll do that, I'm pretty convinced it will more than align with my evolving expectations.

[Jim 123]

Has anybody experienced an insurer requesting increased premium, or higher policy excess, based on whether a Standard or FIA Bar is fitted to your Caterham?

[DJ.]

This just goes round in circles. There is a large grey area between the two poles of this debate.

At one end there are people like myself who treat a track day as a great chance to use the full performance of their road sports car, where there is no oncoming traffic and no speed cameras. With this attitude, I think you can argue that the track is actually safer than the road. I was happy to take an Elan Sprint on track for many years with no roll over protection at all. I did however, spend as lot of time preparing the car by checking wheel bearings/tyres/brakes etc, as anyone but a fool would.

At the other end, we're looking at full cages, 6 point harnesses, plumbed in fire extinguishers etc. This is obviously appropriate where contact is expected in full on racing, but you end up with a car that is seriously compromised for road use.

I would like to try a club track day, but I won't because I don't want to fit lowered floors and a new rollbar (which I would argue is actually less safe for me in 99% of accidents). Fortunately, there are other less prescriptive organisers who are willing to take my money.

By the way, I won't be throwing my toys out of the pram and cancelling my membership. There are far more important things to worry about.

 

[Stewart Collier]

Some time ago I spoke to a Caterham racer who also was a 7 dealer. He said he wouldn't consider driving a 7 on he road without a full cage and side impact bar. SWMBO would insist I had the same,  It just goes to show the differences of peoples opinions. Who's to say he wasn't right or just over cautious.

[DJ.]

Trouble is, a full cage used without harnesses, a helmet, and sufficient clearance/padding is more dangerous in most minor accidents than no bar at all 

[AndrewB]

If we all wanted to be safe on the road then we wouldn't own a Caterham to start with.  I would go so far as to say that driving on the road is more dangerous than a track day.

 

[aerobod - near CYYC]

It is also the case that the correct helmet needs to be used with a cage or a roll bar that a helmet can contact. A motorcycle helmet doesn’t provide the right impact protection. An SA vs MA rated helmet or ISO equivalent should be used that is rated for high point or edge contact vs surface contact.

[Rex]

I don't know if I am alone in thinking this, but I think the FIA bar seriously detracts from the looks of the seven. No matter what safety precautions you take, it doesn't guarantee anything. I think my standard SV rollbar looks fine--I would not order a seven with the FIA bar for this reason.

[CaterBram]

The great thing with the Seven is there are as many variations as there are owners, ultimately each to there own on styling and safety on the road, but whilst perfectly legal I don't think any of us would think of taking the ROPS off a current caterham and running bareback as being acceptable and safe.

It's all about perception and understanding of the risks we expose ourselves to, both on the road and on track, 

For competition it's easy, we have clear standards and rules to follow which can colour our perceptions, and whilst sometimes are contencious it is fairley straightforward to review and administer.

However away from competition it is more unclear, with what is acceptable only being truly only identified retrospectivly in a court of law.

As James has already confirmed, he and the review team are looking at the results of the Roll Bar report and the wider track day rules and will confirm if there are any changes for the 2018 trackday season.

Whilst personally if on a trackday i'd use the same level of protection I use on an event, contrary to some of the statements made on this thread and others about myself and others who are competitors, we do recognize that this is not reasonable or practical for the majority of trackday participants, and i'm sure that James and the Trackday Team will strike a balance between Safety and Practicality in the Clubs role as a Track Day Operator.  

 

[Jim 123]

Given the very nature of the cars, as well as Caterham Cars onerous legal obligations; do we know if CC issue cautionary warnings or disclaimers about using their Standard Roll Bar installation on Track Days? 

I'd guess that Graham MacDonald and his people have given some though to their Standard design being fit for purpose.

[Golf Juliet Tango]

I'd guess that Graham MacDonald and his people have given some though to their Standard design being fit for purpose.

Jim, indeed. One might think this was the case and the Club asked Caterham Cars for these details.  I would expect them to have a material specification, a dimensional specification and fixing specification. Some engineering calculations to demonstrate why these requirements have been made and why they are deemed neccesary and sufficient.  

<P>I thought this level of detail was available for the chassis space frame (don't CC quote stiffness figures?).

[Jim 123]

A valid point Stephen and hopefully this has already been taken up.

I'd say that with safety critical things like Standard level roll bar design; I would be surprised if CC have not trashed a car or two conducting physical roll over crash testing, to validate their design before production release. This would be standard procedure, although I doubt if they will share the crash test lab data and footage.

The attached link is a video of a Seven on a roll, with a Standard Roll Bar doing it's job:

Maybe this was Graham's MacD's way of circumventing test lab fees to validate the Standard rollover capability  : )

 

 

[CaterBram]

LOL nothing like referencing Video Game footage ...........  :-) maybe they used finite analysis to work the graphics out...... funny through even on the game his heads above the roll bar....... 

[Jim 123]

And the helmet paint is unscratched.

[SLR No.77]

"Given the very nature of the cars, as well as Caterham Cars onerous legal obligations; do we know if CC issue cautionary warnings or disclaimers about using their Standard Roll Bar installation on Track Days?"

Erm, doesn't Caterham offering a "track day bar" as an option answer the obvious!

Stu.

[JNC]

Stu,  Supply and demand  ! Win win for the supplier 

[JNC]

What ever the outcome of the club's test any motor sport is dangerous and the need to minimise risk is right , and the risk made aware to those taking part . Unfortunately even with all the appropriate safety equipment in place fatalities do happen .

[DJ.]

The thing is, we're not talking about timed Motorsport. We are talking about track days which ban any timing and only allow passing on straights when the driver in front allows. Car to car contact should be impossible or at least very unlikely.

Duncan

[CaterBram]

DJ, contrary to how everyone says that trackdays are safe and that car to car contact should be impossible it does happen.

My first experience with Trackdays was a Snetterton in 2010. without going into the specifics, this resulted in a Caterham with an instructor onboard spinning off onto the infield and then be struck by a Honda Civic in the passenger compartment. 

Luckily both Driver and Instructor walked away from the incident but only due to the additional strength given by the cage fitted to the Caterham.

Both cars were written off and the Caterham Chassis was Bannana shaped, resulted in a significant court case between the insurers and the Honda Civic Driver.

So yes Accidents do happen, but thankfully whilst rare when they do happen there can have significant risk of injury.

[SLR No.77]

"So yes Accidents do happen, but thankfully whilst rare when they do happen there can have significant risk of injury."

Exactly! My trolley jack is perfectly capable of supporting my car and I've never had any issues, but I would never work under the car without axle stands as well! Maybe it all depends upon how you assess risk.

Stu.

[DJ.]

You are correct, but you surely have to admit that there is much less chance of car to car contact than in a race.

Using an axle stand is a sensible precaution and only takes an extra minute to use, so only an idiot wouldn't use one.

However, are we really saying that people like myself who enjoy driving my Seven on the road, have to fit a full cage, Hans, etc just to take our cars on a track day a couple of times a year?

I still maintain that a well run track day is a safer environment than the road where every other driver is texting and we can potentially collide with HGVs or trees.

Duncan

[Mark Durrant]

There is still a risk examples of which are driver error, mechanical failure, track conditions (oil dropped by another car) so all safety measures need to be carefully considered.