Mucus72 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Hi all,It was great to catch up with some of you gys over the weekend. One of which, ChrisC, highlighted a fix to my potential problem.My 420R D has always "appeared" to run hot. My old K sat at a resolute 80 degrees all day long. My current car hovers around 90 when driving, but then soon goes beyond 100 on the dial, with the fan kicking in north of 100, I would guess at around 105.Chris had a very slightly different issue, as his fan was running a lot and literally just blowing onto a radiator with a closed stat and no flow. So he changed to an 82 degree thermostat.I agree that my problem should also be resolved with an 82 degree thermostat, I think it's this part: caterhamparts - can someone please confirm?If this opens at 82, then water is flowing earlier and I guess the temp is likely to remain lower. And then correctly, and in v hot situations, the fan would kick in at 105 ish.However, would it be possible for me to change the ECU settings for fan initiates, to say 95 ?Ideally looking for a relatively constant low temperature, not a swinging hot one. What do you guys see as optimal here please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted July 11, 2017 Member Share Posted July 11, 2017 Ideally looking for a relatively constant low temperature, not a swinging hot one. What do you guys see as optimal here please?Good question. I think that's always been the problem in the discussion about cooling of hot Duratecs: what's the target?There's another that came up in the discussion of some mystery wires at the front: how many fans does each variant have, and how are they controlled?Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Hi MarcusThat is the part I fitted, FYI it's Ford 1475495. 82C is the point where it starts to open, but it wont be fully open until say 95 ish. The fan cut in temp can only be altered by CC, or someone with the ability to alter the locked ECU. It seems common that stats quote the temperature they start to open and take about 12C to fully open. I believe these higher temperatures are not a problem for the duratec engine, because they are used to reduce emissions, so that wasn't my concern when swapping my stat. My concern was the pointless running of the cooling fan when the water wasn't even circulating through the rad. Now my bottom hose gets hot before the fan kicks in, and the coolant temp remained rock solid all weekend.Hope this helpsChris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Does anyone know what thermostat is fitted to the Duratec as supplied by CC? Do different models have different stats? And what stat do Ford fit in the first place? I think my R400D stat is 82C but I've not yet needed to explore.Re fan wiring, my 2008 car came with two unidentified double-spade connectors. The longer lead had two wires: green/black and yellow/black. The shorter lead had three: 2x green/black and yellow/black. CC explained that I could use either lead as the wiring was intended for a hi/lo fan set-up.JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted July 11, 2017 Member Share Posted July 11, 2017 CC explained that I could use either lead as the wiring was intended for a hi/lo fan set-up.Yes, that's in some diagrams... is it used in any factory configurations?Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucus72 Posted July 11, 2017 Author Share Posted July 11, 2017 Hi John. My engine arrived on a crate from Ford Mexico, and I didn't fit the thermostat, it was already attached. My engine is 2016, and is exhibiting signs that its the standard hundred and whatever (105?) one. Which is what Chris had on his kit build, also around the same time.Another friend, Craig, has a very late R400 D (2015) and that has a rock solid 90 degree indicated (by dial) running water temp. So assumption is that he has the 82 degree one ?WHen I queried with CC soon after I'd started the car up, I received a TADTS response....It's nerve wracking stood in the garage on first start up watching the gauge go up so high before the fan kicks in. I turned it off twice and rechecked everything before I had the balls to just "see what happens". And its been running like that ever since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucus72 Posted July 11, 2017 Author Share Posted July 11, 2017 Also, if the part number is stamped on the stat, then I should be able to tell before I order a new one which one I have fitted. I'm making horrible assumptions that I don't have the 82 degree one...tonight I will see if I can see the Ford part numebr stamped on it, thanks for all of your help Chris.And I'm still keen to know what I need to buy to read the ECU codes please....ThanksM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Good news and bad news on that Bad news first there is no temperature rating stamped on the stat, or part number. Good news it's easy to tell based on the size and shape of the plastic housing. If the plastic housing hose connection are short then its an 82, long then its not. This also helps us S3 owners with space in that area. Now if I could just work out how to post a picture I can show them side by side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted July 11, 2017 Member Share Posted July 11, 2017 Now if I could just work out how to post a picture I can show them side by side. Forum User Guide.Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Now if I could just work out how to post a picture I can show them side by side. I think these are the two jobbies (from CC online store):Standard thermostat 30E107A (unspecified degree value): 82C thermostat 30E268A:Hope that helps!JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Side by side, 82 on the right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucus72 Posted July 11, 2017 Author Share Posted July 11, 2017 thanks gents, blimey, I don't need to hunt a part number, massive size difference between them both!Will check a little alter when at home...Marcus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomwood Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 I keep meaning to do this to my 2013 Duratec as well. It's just annoying having the fan running near enough constantly. It also exacerbates another issue I have with mine which is that at idle the alternator doesn't really generate sufficent voltage to keep the battery topped up. With the headlights and fan running together I get a net loss overall and steadily run the battery flat.having said all that mine runs hot just like everyone else's and it's not done any harm. As said earlier they are designed to run pretty hot anyway from what I've read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted July 11, 2017 Member Share Posted July 11, 2017 ... at idle the alternator doesn't really generate sufficent voltage to keep the battery topped up.Did you ever try a different pulley size?Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Well, thanks to ChrisC's excellent tip (post #8), I now know that I have the standard (non-82C) stat. However, it's truly inaccessible under the roller-barrels (S3). To change the stat, I'd have to remove all four trumpets plus the backplate. (Mind you, I had to do exactly that when I replaced the oil-cooler hoses.)JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomwood Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Hi Jonathan,No I never got round to trying it. To be fair I rarely go out in the dark so decided not to bother. The fan being on all the time is more of an annoyance than anything which is why I'm tempted to try the lower temp stat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR400D Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 I'm puzzled by this thread. My R400D, delivered as a kit in December '14, first registered June 15, came with an engine that was from Powertorque Engineering of Coventry. I have an invoice/certificate from them which came in all my paperwork. I don't understand the reference to Ford Mexico. As for running temperature, it has been very consistent. The stat opens at 82, and the gauge shows that by falling back a few degrees when it opens. Running steadily it stays between 80/82. It never goes over about 85, even in traffic. On the open road when you clear traffic and wind it up the temperature falls, to about 76/77 then gradually comes back to 80/82. On track, with constant high revs it often runs just below 80, occasionally a few degrees more. Usually around 80 It will go up to around 85 with heat soak after a track session. The fan comes in just over 82 or so. I have checked the temperature on hoses etc under the bonnet with a pyrometer and they seem to indicate that the gauge is reasonably accurate. Are there any indications when and to which engines were fitted with the higher temperature stat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 There is no "try" about it, if your bottom hose is cool to the touch and the fan is running, the 82C stat fixes that and makes the cooling system more logical. It's madness to run a cooling fan on a rad that's not flowing water, it just costing you fuel and wearing out parts.I did it, and now my cooling system/fan works like every other car I have owned or built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Newer Duratec are made and supplied from a Ford factory in Mexico. My reading came from the ECU, using Easymap6, but are confirmed by my IR thermometer. The gauge uses a separate sensor, mine tends to under read a bit, but nothing to worry about.The problem is caused by the ECU fan switch on temperature being lower that the stat fully open temperature. It would be ok to up the fan switch on temperature, because the Duratec is designed to run at the higher temperature, but we can't because the ECU is locked, so the only option is to lower the stat temperature, which we can by fitting a part from Ford, Caterham Cars or Cosworths parts catalogs.If your car is running at 80C I guess you have the 82c stat fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted July 12, 2017 Member Share Posted July 12, 2017 No I never got round to trying it. To be fair I rarely go out in the dark so decided not to bother.How about changing to LED lamps? And I'd be very interested in the voltage at low engine speed with various combinations of the fan, sidelights and headlights.Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted July 12, 2017 Member Share Posted July 12, 2017 The problem is caused by the ECU fan switch on temperature being lower that the stat fully open temperature. It would be ok to up the fan switch on temperature, because the Duratec is designed to run at the higher temperature, but we can't because the ECU is locked, so the only option is to lower the stat temperature, which we can by fitting a part from Ford, Caterham Cars or Cosworths parts catalogs.Not quite the only option... you could add another sensor and control the fan from that. Or possibly use the temperature signal from the existing sensor to the ECU.Has anyone tested what's coming out of the two fan output connectors against temperature?Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Both cooling fan connection are powered by the same single wire supply, there is only one cooling fan relay. There are countless options, but adding a proper cooling fan stat into the loom and welding a boss into the rad, let alone modifying the loom seems a bit extreme when you consider the part I fitted was supplied by CC and is only held on with three bolts. I was only considering reversible invisible solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucus72 Posted July 12, 2017 Author Share Posted July 12, 2017 Just a quick update from me. My Mexico direct sourced Duratec engine, 2016 year is definitely fitted with the longer 100+ degree stat. I will order the 82 degree one shortly and fit it. I know there is less space in an S3 chassis when compared to my SV, but it was still quite a challenge to fit the tee piece and those rad pipes at assembly. I have big hands and there is still very little space, with the plenum and top rad pipe etc. in the way too.thanks for your help Chris!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Yer when I did mine I removed the plenum and the belt tensioner to gain access to the plenum bolts, simple job after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 The Mexico direct source intrigues me, Presumably the engine still went via CC, for them to fit things like the lightened flywheel, hotter cams, ARP big-end bolts, plenum and a fancy coil cover?...longer 100+ degree stat...Do we actually know what the temp rating of this stat is? My R400 definitely has this stat, but the water temp gauge rarely rises above 80C, and more often sits lower. (Maybe I should invest in a pyrometer -- any recommendations?)JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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