westy Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Have just found this for sale. will it fit a caterham? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger King Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 I don't know if it will fit - it is physically longer than a BDR, but if it is in race spec it will be horrible to drive on the road. The cams are full race and the mechanical injection takes no account of differing volumetric efficiency at different revs; likewise the ignition system takes no account of throttle position, etc. If you're racing, this is fine, but for road use, I would advise decamming and the fitting of a modern engine management system. Parts are very difficult to get since Brian shut the company and retired and they are also very expensive. The rights to the engine have been bought by Burtons, but my gut feeling is that some stuff will still be difficult. Go into this one with your eyes wide open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmandsd Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 I appeciate Roger's points and agree that EFI would be preferable to mechanical injection (still on a slide would be ideal though). These are the ultimate 4 cylinder race engine and will cost you £25k for all new bits from Burtons. Due to their traditional big bore/short stroke configuration they are really too long to fit striaght in a Caterham as Roger suggests and will therefore require chassis mods which may not appeal to most. A 2lt one of these with 48mm slide and 38mm inlet valves on EFI would be good for well over 300bhp at 9,500 rpm. The only 4 cylinder race engine that's better in my opinion is the BMW F2 engine....but it is iron blocked, £37k and only available from a small number of tuners in France and Italy. If you're not interested in pursuing I just might be so let me know Home of BDR700 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Piper Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Regardless of all that, what a gem eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Dave, Did you need chassis mods to fit yours? Does yours not share the same block (BDT 4 bolt thingy)? How much is one of these worth 2nd hand? I suppose the rebuild cost could be crippling, but shurely the value is in the castings and special hart bits? Are Rods and Crank not avliable from Arrows/Doug Kidie as per normal steel engines. Any I'd like one! Greg, Q 86 NTM (Green 185BHP XF) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmandsd Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Hi Greg, I've got a BD (which is totally uninterchangeable with a Hart apart from he rods) and just fits in the Caterham. The Hart's longer re bigger bores - up to 100mm requiring chassis mods. As you say you can buy the crank/rods direct from DKE/Arrows but it's this and the castings/other bits that adds up. Rebuild costs on BD's/Hart's are often inflated eventhough I accept they are dearer than the norm - depends who you use I suppose. Second hand prices on Hart's vary enormously but were until recently cheaper than BD's on the grounds you couldn't get the parts for them - You can now though via Burtons. I think the key with these engines remaining reliable is the use of a reputable builder and the best parts you can lay your hands on eg: Standard 5.23 inch steel x/flow Arrows rods are ok but they do do Hart equivalents which are identical apart from having additional strength in certain areas - so go for these and not the standard rods. Home of BDR700 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger King Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 The 420R is not a modified BDA. This is a common misconception which may have arisen from confusion with the 420S. This was also a Hart F2 engine, but was based on a heavily modified BDA. In fact, some of the mods (improved cam carrier, aluminium block), etc were eventually incorporated into different versions of the BDA family. The 420R is a purpose made unit for F2 and incorporates some nightmare features for the enthusiastic amateur - perhaps the worst is the fact that the main bearing ladder and sump are combined as one unit for strength and rigidity. It's a great engine and probably on a par with the BMW unit, but was eventually eclipsed by the likes of Honda's V6 unit. We used to see around 302bhp from them until Brian strenghthened the block, when power went up about 10bhp; having said that, I'm reasonably sure that the Hart dyno was a little optimistic, because the last one I built gave 295bhp on Geoff Richardson's dyno and far from being disappointed, he said it was one of the best ones he'd had on. I reckon that a 420R equipped with modern management and a few other changes would give quite a bit more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westy Posted February 20, 2003 Author Share Posted February 20, 2003 Youv'e got me thinking now I found this for sale while at work today at £8000 I will post the details tomorrow (9ish) when I get back to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westy Posted February 20, 2003 Author Share Posted February 20, 2003 This is the ad I found. It's on the web so I suppose it's alright to copy. Hart 420R 2ltr Engine (Only 50 miles!) 8,000 GBP philpriceconnaught@hillclimb.freeserve.co.uk +44 (0)1795 843802 UK Hart 420r 2.0lt on carbs, 50 miles only, good! Day No 01795 843802/fax 01795 841358 mob 07831 342874 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 I think I've seen this advertised before a few weeks ago. If only ... 420R, Sequential 6 speed, R500 chassis I think I'd more money than I presently have! 😬 Greg, Q 86 NTM (Green 185BHP XF) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelspeed Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Mike Barnby (of wheels fame) has got one, he was rebuilding it when I dropped some wheels off the other week. It's HUGE!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruff seven Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Dave, Ime putting a F2 BDG, into a caterham chassis, I think it was yours I saw in last low flying ,looks well would appreciate any tips, regards Paul D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdg Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Don't do it! A friend of mine has one in a Thundersports Chevron. It's a handful on 12"wide racing slicks in the dry- in the wet it's a bitch. It's also probably the costliest 2litre engine to rebuild (at present), with the last "freshen up" costing over £12000! The engine is so unreliable that over the last 2 years it's been out of the car more than in... Having said all that, the sight and sound of a big Chevron powersliding out of Goddards at Donington with that howl reverberating off the pit garages is some thing that sticks in your memory. A 420R on song is a joy to behold. Off song it's a nightmare... Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger King Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Blimey! £12000 is a lot even by 420R standards, assuming it was a straight rebuild and not an upgrade. The car isn't the old Richard Copeman one is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R2D2 Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 I recently found an FVA head complete with cams and gears, could be interesting on the right block and it is for sale in Warwick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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