Building cars

[Mucus72]

i enjoyed building my Caterham kit more than I could ever have imagined. Since completion, I've assisted others in their garages too. 

I know that some people start the process and really don't get on with it. I wonder if there is a market for a service that supports more than a phone call to Derek and for a fee (smaller than the £3k for factory build) a roving company would support individuals on either sub assembly (e.g. Diff, engine in, gearbox in) or to completion of build. 

Probably not the volume there to make a viable case for creating a business, but what do POBC think?

call it a Monday discussion...

[Jonathan Kay]

Probably not the volume there to make a viable case for creating a business... 

As you imply: it would be a very tight niche between DIY ± helpful volunteers (and they don't come much more helpful than around here) and full service operations.

But it needn't be restricted to building. My nerve fails just short of fitting a new cam belt to my K. I might be interested in paying someone to come and do it, or watch me do it, rather than dropping the whole car off somewhere else. And apart from that convenience I'd probably do more of the job myself with an angel alongside.

Jonathan

[Paul Richards]

Just the sort of thing that happens at LADS all the time with no charge. Do members in other areas not do the same? Or do people on Blatchat not visit their local meeting?

[Mucus72]

yep, I get that Paul. I have a few helpful friends on here who have guided me, and vice versa. Although I "fess up" to never having been to the L7C local meet near Loughborough where I live. I think you may live in a region where there is a better set up? But I am not talking from experience, jsut from feeling and with no Leicestershire AR for a long time.

I guess most home builders with a plan on doing so will have joined here, but maybe not? I see Facebook as taking over from this forum in many respects. IMHO this is a shame, because the quality of response and consideration on here is greater.

And then the "angels" word you use Jonathan. I like it. But it's akin to me helping out for pure pleasure with a new builder in the Hucknall area who is now at IVA and someone like Revilla popping over for a tea and a biscuit to help me work  through odd duratec engine/gearbox vibrations...

But is there a whole other set of folk that are stuck between a rock and a hard place that don't become a club member and stall through the build process. Im not convinced CC pick these up. Some cars take years to build when really its a 80-100 hour job for a single person with focus, time and some mechanical expertise first time building.

GTKY7 events are always over subscribed, and that's super basic, without wishing to be disrespectful (as I started off by going to one of those 5 years ago).

In my head is see hundreds of depressed owners with partial builds going glacially....

[Mucus72]

And following on from my response above, and also aimed at teh "angel support" I am mates with a motorsport mechanic who "enables" throguh face to face workshops with the cars younger mechanics. He works in Formula E currently.

And I work in the Software industry and most of my career has been about enabling others wit technology.

So imagine convincing many who would normally elect to go factory build to have an equivalent of factory build in their own homes whilst being coached all the way through and getting hands on.

hmmmmm....

[TomB]

All such a semi-professional 'angel' would need would be some decent tools, engine crane and other garage infrastructure and means to transport it, together with just enough knowledge to really bugger it up/ help out.  That sounds a really fun thing to do, irrespective of making any money out of it. Travelling the country in a small van, building / mending 7s, survivng on tea, hobnobs and the odd bacon butty.    

[ScottR400D]

Years to build? Really?

I'm not sure that you aren't making a bit much of this. I thought the build process was quite straightforward; the two areas most difficult for most, I would suggest, painting and wiring, are already done. Given that you're dealing with all new components which, in the main, bolt together easily it's not that hard IMO. 

I would venture that if you really need a significant amount of outside help, it might be wise to buy ready built. 

I think for info and development, once the car is up and running, and problem solving it always helps to get experienced advice but I've always found this forum and my local club more than able to satisfy that need. 

I would also think that most long build periods are due to availability of time rather than capability. E.g. I started my build then went off on holiday!

In summary, if there were a need for the service you propose, after sixty years it would probably be here!!

 

[ChrisC]

Just going to put my 2p in.

My 360R was a pig to build, and in some ways is still being a pig.   I have on more then one or two occasions felt like selling it as an unfinished project, the same way I purchased it.   It's on the road now, but still the list of task grows.    

My experience with car mechanics has only ever been a hobby, but have been building and restoring Mini since I was 15 year, including some serious turbo conversions while I was in my 20's.   I have had two previous 7s, which have had significant rebuild work done by me.   I have a significant tool collection, collected over many year, which should cover most jobs, sadly I no longer have the space I once did.    

It's difficult to explain why I see my 360R as a pig to work on,  Before you start anything you just know its going to be more difficult than needed.   The best example I can give of this the pedal box cover.   Something so simple, I have removed and refitted many times on my previous cars, yet fitting it on my 360R last night after IVA took over a hour and that about explains the whole car.

Some other classics include, DVLA V5 mistakes, IVA paperwork delays, Caterham spilling super glue on my bonnet, etc etc.    Couple this with the expected wrong and missing parts you begin to get the picture. 

Funnily enough when Caterham South had it for the flat floor and PBC and weather gear fit it also took than they expected, so it wasn't just me it seems.   

I am not sure a paid for service could work financial, unless you pay by the hour.  So it would have to be a hobby. 

[ChrisC]

Wiring done, not with my car.  It was done by a forgetful Steve Wonder. 

[ScottR400D]

Maybe I was lucky. ;)

To be fair, I didn't bother doing the IVA stuff, Midlands did that for me but the car went together well and apart from a leaking radiator and failed PCB, it's been fine. I even did all the weather equipment though I did buy a proper popper tool in the end.

At 21 months old it's now done 4K including a few TDs and after each one I give it a good spanner check. So far I haven't found anything breaking or even coming loose. 

Yes, there were a few bits missing and a few calls needed to get them. On the other hand I reported a few things missing, got replacements and then found the originals, so I have a few spares now!

Oh, I forgot! I had a problem with the gearbox. CC replaced the box when the car had done just a few hundred miles. 

[ChrisC]

I am looking at a possible box problem, IVA man made comments on how hard it was to shift, and its very noisy on light throttle in 6th.   

Not sure about having someone else removing it and refitting, don't think it will feel like my car after that.

[ScottR400D]

I know how you feel, that was my exact thought at the time. When I got the car back I crawled all over checking torque settings, alignment in the tunnel etc. but it was fine. It was all sorted in a couple of days. 

Btw my issue was that, when stone cold, there was drive through the box to the diff, even in neutral. This was evident because it was not rolling freely. Depress the clutch and it was OK and was fine after just a few seconds running. A synchro issue I guess. 

[Paul 160]

I like the idea, maybe its because like you I've never been to the local meeting - maybe I should as I'm not 100% certain my car is handling right...

Anyway I don't think you could make a living out of it doing just Caterhams. You might get more take up if you expanded to other types of 7s. A guy at work has been building his Westfield for 6 years now and his car is a second hand project from someone who gave up. Of course that would open you up to all kinds of wacky builds.

Paul.

[Mucus72]

So fascinating to see Lee's (Scott) perspective as opposite of Chris'. I fell on Lee's side although there were some build moments that were incredibly frustrating. 

I think that emotional support to ensure a sense of completion and achievement is felt by the owner is very important. Not everyone is easily able to process themselves out of a hole or even drag themselves to the garage again to do a piece of work they feel shitty about because it's their 5th attempt, the first 3 of which were with the wrong components,tools or comprehension ;) 

i reckon that if I'd have worked with Chris in his garage every weekend together as his build angel and maybe the outcome would have been more personally satisfying. 

But I agree with others that to monetise that is really hard. Also as previously agreed, forum and club support is absolutely amazing. The subtlety is the face to face hand-holding. 

[ChrisC]

Marcus, I know where your coming from, but as I said none of the jobs on my car where completely new to me, and apart from trimming I had all the tools needed.   My  problems where a combination of new to me components, so putting a duratec in a S3, where I have previously only done Sigmas and Vauxhall's.   Plumbing the duratec in a s3 for example, there is just no room around the stat and t piece, I still cant believe the correct factory solution has hoses sitting on the washer bottle.

As for a sense of satisfaction, I know I can do better, and have done so in the past, so this is why I am not as positive over the experience as maybe I could be.   As it stands now I feel I will build another, but next time I won't make the same mistakes (in my book) most of which are not build related.

 

[Mucus72]

At least they've moved the washer bottle location now on S3 chassis Chris. Maybe you made Derek cry?!

[elie boone]

Edd China is leaving Wheeler Dealers, that might be an opportunity.

[rockinroyston]

I've just completed my build & I enjoyed it a lot, I'm not a mechanical expert but not completely clueless either... However without the amazing bloggs everywhere & the patience of Derek it would have been an un necessary headache in a few area's. You ignore the build guide at your peril however it wrong foots you all the time. I also made the mistake of following the first part of the pictorial guide & ended up pretty much having to take it all apart again as a crucial fact (winding on the upper track rod ends equally) was omitted. Mine has now gone for the PBC & IVA but I'm fully expecting to find out I left off a crucial washer & everything needs to be taken apart... I'm quite diligent & can follow instructions so I shouldn't have to be worried about stuff like that... 

& don't get me started on the pedal box cover... one of my rivnuts came loose & trying to get the box off (with the bolt stuck in) was an unnecessary challenge! this must happen a lot so why they use this method of attachment is beyond me...

The cost of getting the car built by Caterham isn't massive but I wanted to do it myself, I'm guessing most self builders take that view & that its not a cost saving reason. So I'm not sure then paying someone to build it 'with you' is that viable (unless the owner gives up & just wants it finished...).