Richardoh Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Anyone able to recommend a 'Caterham friendly' place to take a 2003 K Series for a MOT retest in (or near) North Yorkshire? Ours has just failed on its emissions. It sailed through everything else but we've only had it a year so haven't yet had to find a local place to help us look after it. Any suggestions or advice very welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadsport06 Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 How off were the emissions? A hot cat and perhaps some injector cleaner may do the job. Injector cleaner can make quite a difference if the injectors are a little gummed up. Do you have a cat fitted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNC Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Take a look at your V5 = C02 is 0. section 18 of VOSA guide state kit car made from new and second hand parts visual inspection only ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadsport06 Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 2003 won't be visual only will it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted March 25, 2017 Member Share Posted March 25, 2017 Current decision flowchartJonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNC Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 My 2012 Duratec states 0= C02 kit car made from new and second hand parts ! Even though it was factory built I'm sure there was a thread recently on here about M O T and emissions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted March 25, 2017 Member Share Posted March 25, 2017 I'm sure there was a thread recently on here about M O T and emissions Just a few!:-)Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richardoh Posted March 26, 2017 Author Share Posted March 26, 2017 Hi all. Really helpful comments so far, thanks. As I understand it, I do have to have a proper test due to build date. It does have a cat - inside 421 Powerspeed exhaust. Emissions were some way out, but I have already been advised to give it a really good run with some cleaner in as that might bring it down far enough. That said, the (extensive) paperwork with the car suggests emissions has been a problem before. Did one fab run towards the Dales yesterday (no hardship in this weather!) and hopefully some more today. Perhaps it just needs that but if it does need more help from someone who really knows about Caterhams after its retest, I'd certainly like to know where others do this.Re the V5 - am I being really thick - there doesn't seem to be a section 18 - goes straight from 17 to 19... Any further advice very welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon_h Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 If you have a cat in the silencer you will need to get it f hot just before they test it to get it to work at all. It's too far away by then for the engine control to do it's job properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNC Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 Richardoh, I believe in section 18 of the VOSA guidelines the reference to kit built cars is a visual. Not the V5, sorry for confusion . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john milner Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 It would be useful to check what tests it failed on. For example Lambda usually means a leak that can be easily fixed with sealant and CO is possibly a cold cat.The "friendly" ones are usually the patient ones who let things heat up and try a few times. Most mechanics are interested in the cars so a friendly chat with the tester may help. I've seen it failing but then all of sudden improve which is probably the cat getting to temperature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richardoh Posted March 26, 2017 Author Share Posted March 26, 2017 Definitely going to have everything really hot before the next test. For those of you who are interested / really understand these things:Fast idle: CO 2.17 vs 0.30 to pass, HC 406 vs 200 to pass, Lambda pass (1.012 vs 1.090 to pass)Second Fast Idle:CO 2.00, HC 296, Lambda 0.993Natural Idle:CO 4.54 vs 0.50 to pass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted March 27, 2017 Member Share Posted March 27, 2017 Mmmmm... data. You're a long way off. How hot was the engine? What's the history of the car? What were the values at previous tests? How well does it run generally? How old are the plugs and what type are they?Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Yes, that is a long way out. The high CO plus high HC point to running too rich, although your lambda suggests otherwise. It does seem that either your cat is defective or not hot enough. Where is the oxygen sensor located, and how far away is it from the cat? Is the air filter clean and in good nick? Is your induction standard CC/Rover or do you have TBs? What ECU do you have? Has the car ever been remapped?JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revilla Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 @John Vine - Would an exhaust manifold air leak ahead of the lambda draw in air and give similar readings? Lambda would think it was running lean so ECU would rich it up a bit until the lambda was reading correctly, at which point the cylinder combustion would be rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revilla Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Mind you I'm not sure what a post-cat emissions tester would then find at the tailpipe. I'm just guessing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Andrew, I think you're spot on. A falsely enriched mixture would give both high HC and high CO readings. Also, the OP has an exhaust collector for his 4-2-1 Powerspeed (presumably ahead of the sensor), so it could well be leaking (that is, sucking in air) there.Btw, do MOT gas analyzers actually read the O2 sensor output, or merely calculate a lambda value from other inputs?JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richardoh Posted March 27, 2017 Author Share Posted March 27, 2017 I have to say I'm loving how you're all engaging with my little problem - and you are really helping me out, so thank you!Latest update for you. Having run the car quite a bit (and reasonably enthusiastically at times) over the weekend, and having put some engine cleaner through, we had a retest done today. The car was warmer for the test too, but not straight off a hard run.It failed again - but I am a glass half full kind of person, and the good news is that it's improved a lot, and more than that, I think it's maybe clarified a bit where the problem could be. So here's what I have now:Fast idle: CO now 0.82 vs 0.30 to pass (and was 2.17) HC now 207 vs 200 to pass (and was 406) Lambda still passSecond fast idle: CO now 1.22 vs 0.30 to pass (and was 2.00) HC now 76 vs 200 to pass (and was 296) Lambda still passNatural idle: CO now 2.31 vs 0.50 to pass (and was 4.54)So our big issue is really the CO - the HC is more or less there now.To answer some other questions from the string: Engine was hotter this time than last - and the car hadn't run much since coming out of hibernation when it went for the first test - lesson learned there Car has a pretty sound history, very dedicated and savvy previous owners and purchased from BaT last year. Generally the car seems sound, and runs very nicely, albeit a bit lumpy at idle Haven't been able to get my hands on values for previous tests. It did fail on emissions a few years ago but has passed since then I haven't checked plugs or air filter as yet. Likewise proper examination of the cat The spec sheet I have says it had a DVA K14 upgrade, verniers & 52mm TB back in early 2008. ECU is marked 75806, Supersport/Dec03/UpgradeFor those of you still interested in the case... over to you! What would you do next?Thanks again Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted March 28, 2017 Member Share Posted March 28, 2017 Look for that possible exhaust leak, but what's the best way? Inspect and probably replace plugs. Clean or replace air filter.Have you chatted with the garage about needing repeat checks without going through MOT processes... when does it expire?Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted March 28, 2017 Member Share Posted March 28, 2017 Btw, do MOT gas analyzers actually read the O2 sensor output, or merely calculate a lambda value from other inputs?I've always assumed they have their own oxygen sensor, and that's it similar to the one on the car... but is that what you're asking?Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve T Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 My car is a 1.8K DVA K13 with TBs and Emerald (mapped). One of the issues when I take mine for MoT is getting the readings to remain "stable" and stay within the limits for the 30 second fast idle test. This normally takes a few cycles.The issue I found was trying to keep my foot still on the throttle as every time I speeded up or slowed down the RPM a little within the 2,500 to 3,000 range, the initial change is engine speed caused a 'blip' in the readings which normally jumped outside of the test pass range foe a couple of seconds.The way around this was to control the engine speed by a method other than a human foot, a long stick would do or using the idel speed control screw on the accelerator, one I could keep the RPM very constant, the readings were solid.That may help some people.Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john milner Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 The MOT testers shove a probe up the tail pipe. The oxygen content it measures determines the lambda reading. Usually with a leaky system the MOT probe will detect high oxygen but the cars sensor will think everything is fine and the mixture will not be enriched. Although if a leak is before the cars probe then the ECU may want to enrich. Now that the system is being tested hotter the lambda tests seem to being passed easily where they struggled previously this could be because heat expansion is helping to seal any gaps. My feeling is there is a minor leak that could benefit from sealant but it is not enough to worry about.If it's not leaking and the plugs look clean I would look at getting the timing spot on.Description of the DVA K14 package at - http://www.dvapower.co.uk/ I think the basic aim of the upgrade is to get more fuel into the combustion chamber and at the right time. If the timing is not right there will be unburnt fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 ...but is that what you're asking?Maybe, Jonathan -- I'm not sure! I was wondering whether the gas analyzer (a) read the car's own lambda sensor output, or (b) measured O2 independently, or © calculated a lambda value from other inputs, such as a combination of HC, CO2 and CO. From post #22, it seems that it does (b) and then derives a lambda value from that.JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeMan Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Richardoh, did you ever get your car through the test and if so, how?I am in exactly the same position (1.8 k-series, DVA tuned, TBs, Powerspeed 4-2-1 and re-mapped) and high on the CO. The HC was OK but the lambda failed too.I fitted a new lambda sensor but if anything the CO is now worse!It would be good to know what you did, or what I can do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted May 25, 2017 Member Share Posted May 25, 2017 What were the concentrations, and do you have them from previous tests?Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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