Starter motor

[rich71]

Yesterday after a blat and a break for half an hour or so the starter motor did not activate. It was quite embarrassing really as the car was pulling quite a lot of attention in the centre of Stow-on-the-Wold, even whilst sat in the car looking puzzled (and worried) someone came up asking for a picture...anyway i digress, the symptoms were fuel pump on (can be heard) but then nothing at all when turning the ignition.

I am aware of the k-click (mine is a 1.6k) but i didn't hear a click at all so not sure it is the same thing or not. Bonnet off and could hear the relay but nothing from the starter or solenoid. I wiggled everything and then out of desperation tried again and bingo it fired up. Had to get some fuel on the way home and was somewhat worried but it fired up no problems.

Any ideas and more importantly is it likely to happen again? 

[Jonathan Kay]

Yes, it's likely to happen again.

There are lots of possible causes. I'd start with:

1. Inspect and clean all the contacts and wires involved: all the fat ones to the starter and alternator, all the engine earths, everything at the battery, and the thin one to the solenoid. If any wires look tired or cooked replace them. Clean and wiggle all the connections.
2. Measure the voltage across the battery with the engine off, with it running at 3,000 rpm, and the minimum during cranking. (Do you have a multimeter already?)

Jonathan

 

[BlackSeven]

Start by eliminating the simple issues and check the security and cleanliness of the starter switch to starter solenoid wiring and while you are at it check the integrity of the main electrical feed to the starter and the earth lead. If all that looks ok check the resistance across the starter switch contacts. If that looks OK I'd say that the internal contacts within the starter solenoid are prime suspect. 

Rob

[rich71]

Just had a quick check, i can see the insulation on the small wire (has a stiff cover around it, looks like a spring with tape over) looks a little melted at one point...can i splice into this (if needed) rather than take it back to wherever it goes as looks like it goes into the loom.

I will take the connector from the solenoid andtry and get a better look and see if i can get a resistance check on this.

The battery is all fine.

[Jonathan Kay]

Hmmm... it might just be a bad connection where the outside looks damaged but it could be cooked higher up as well. I'd get it off the terminal and exposed and have a good look.

If you decide to replace more there's no need to open the loom, but you can if you want to. 

Jonathan

PS: I'm sceptical about all 7 batteries! It seems quite common to get this sort of problem with batteries that are on the way out whereas on other cars you can usually tell first from the slow cranking.

[john milner]

The starter motor is never going to operate if there is no relay click as the relay operates the solenoid. I would focus on the low voltage wiring between the switch and relay , relay earth and the actual ignition switch. I recently had a starter button failure with the same symptoms.

[rich71]

The relay clicked but nothing from the solenoid. I have checked the wires (the melted shielding looked historic as if it had at some point been against something hot, but does not reach anything at present, cable underneath ok) and reconnected everything, sprayed acf50 on connections and am going to put some heat shielding in place....will see from there

[Jonathan Kay]

I'd do the voltage checks next: it's very hard to diagnose what's happening if you're relying on the battery and there's a fault in or near it.

But if you want to you can run a temporary lead from the battery live and touch it to the solenoid terminal. Or vice versa.

Jonathan

 

[rich71]

Thanks, at present there is no fault and starts on the money each time. I do intend making up an emergency fly lead just in case though.

[john milner]

I'm a little confused. In post 1 you say there is no relay click but in a later one you say there is.

If the relay is clicking then the ignition switch side of things is probably okay. The most likely suspect is the infamous K click relay although I suppose it could be the solenoid or it's wiring. I would buy and carry the parts and instructions for the relay mod just so I could fix it on the spot if I had to.

http://www.alcester-racing-sevens.com/starter_relay_mod.htm

I also did this although it turned out to be a waste of effort:

http://www.alcester-racing-sevens.com/solenoid_service.htm

Heat shielding may help the solenoid: http://www.alcester-racing-sevens.com/starter_maintenance.htm

[rich71]

Don't be confused, I did say "Bonnet off and could hear the relay but nothing from the starter or solenoid" in the first post.

I would still like to know if the k-click is the click of the relay or the solenoid, the relay can't be heard from the drivers seat (on mine anyway, only when bonnet off over that side) and presume the solenoid click can (as in having a flat battery).

[john milner]

When my relay failed I could hear the click with the bonnet on. If you are on your own using a mobile phone to record the click might help you work out where the sound is coming from. A good thing about the relay mod is that when the replacement fails it is very easy to replace.

One other thing has caused me starting problems is the master switch although when it plays up the fuel pump does not come on. Sometimes it needs a wiggle to get it going although I have found that using it more often seems to have fixed it (probably by cleaning the contacts).
 

If it packs up again you could try removing the starter and testing it with a battery on a bench but due to limited spanner space it is easier to to do the relay mod than it is to remove the starter.

[Paul Richards]

You have K series click. Happens when hot. relay clicks and nothing else happens.

My method of fitting the relay (worked fine for 15 years):-

It will cost about £10 or £12 in bits and take about 45 or so minutes to fit. 

You’ll need :-

A 30 amp 4 pin relay – available from virtually all motor accessory shops at around £6. 
A couple of lengths of wire – suggest about 1 foot of black and about 3 feet of red.
An in line fuse – preferably waterproof.
Electrical terminals – 2 ring type to fit the battery terminals, and 4 female spade terminals (3 to fit the relay and 1 to fit the starter solenoid), although I understand some solenoids are fitted with a ring terminal also – please check. 

Method:-

First disconnect the battery. You should disconnect the negative (Black) lead first. You will normally need a couple of either 10mm or 11mm spanners.

Attach the relay to the ‘ledge’ in front of the battery in the centre i.e. around middle of battery. The relay is attached using a tag with a hole in it, which is normally fitted to or supplied with the relay. I prefer to fix using a pop rivet, but you can use a self-tapping screw or a small nut and bolt if you don’t have a pop rivet gun.

Detach the smaller wire (i.e. NOT the big red one) from the rear of the solenoid on the starter. It may be stiff, but should just pull off.

Reconnect this wire to the terminal on the relay marked 86.

Connect a long red wire to the terminal on the solenoid (where you previously removed the wire – see 3 above) and connect the other end to terminal on  relay marked 87.

Connect the wire with the in line fuse to terminal 30 on the relay and the other end to the positive terminal of the battery (using a ring terminal) along with the wire(s) that you originally removed. 

****** It is important to reconnect the positive terminal first ******

Using the short length of black wire connect terminal 85 of the relay to the negative terminal of the battery along with the wire(s) that you originally removed.

Check that all connections are secure and “tidy up” the wires using tape or cable ties, making sure that wires are kept well away from the exhaust.

Your car should now be ready for use. Start in the normal manner, but don’t forget that you’ll probably have to reset the immobiliser after disconnecting the battery. This is normally achieved by pressing the ‘plip’ about 4 or 5 times – I’m sure you’re all familiar.

One other thing you might need (if you have eyesight like me) is a magnifying glass – the markings on the relays tend to be very, very small!!

[Jonathan Kay]

Not all clicks are due to faulty relays.

Jonathan

[rich71]

Thanks all, sounds like some winter tinkering required...which i like doing anyway 

[john milner]

Not as common or as obvious but you can have cold click failure. My original relay (MFRU) failed when hot starting in a petrol station but its replacement failed after cooling down for about four hours.

This particular fault might not be fixed by the relay mod but it is the most likely and trying to figure out exactly what is at fault will be almost impossible without eliminating the most likely cause.

[Paul Richards]

"Not all clicks are due to faulty relays."

Very true, but if it occurs when it's hot and the MFRU clicks but no solenoid action then I'm pretty sure the relay mod will sort it. 

I've successfully "cured" over a dozen cars with these symptoms by fitting a relay.