K series 1.8 running issues

[polo.danny]

Hi all

Ive got a problem. My 1.8 k series is knocky at idle then runs ok to 5000 rpm then very noisy with very little speed increase to 6000 where  it makes a horrible noise and will not rev any higher.  If a drive to about 3500 rpm through the gears it will run fine to 70mph . If i throttle hard there is a slight hesitation then good power to 5000 but then power drops off and it gets very noisy. there is a fuel smell which i thought was normal but drove 360R for a week which was more fuel efficient and no smell. Here is a bit of history.

1.Reported low oil pressure to CC it was 4 on start up dropping to 1 when hot. The oil temp is off the gauge they they said its normal. i took sump off to tap in new bolt and found bits of gasket about half playing card size in the bottom  they have now removed and oil back up to 4 but still hot.

2. I did drop into 3rd gear by mistake a while ago and engine did rev high but should be protected my rev limiter ?

3. About 3 months ago engine would not start at petrol station and blew the 20 amp ECU fuse (apparently normal ish) changed to 30 amp fuse ECU no power for about an hour

Things checked by myself. Plugs leads distributor i did unplug ECU and TPS then did a reset which did make a difference as before it would not rev past 5500. Took of rocker cover cams all look ok 

CC had it for a week who did all of the above along with compression check, all Ok. Fuel pressure check, all Ok. Timing check OK then cam pully and pin check  all OK. they put in new plugs and one lead. They think it is a top end issue and suggested that i take head off and check the valves. They also put on and  ran a different exhaust for a week no change.

My questions could this possiably be an ECU issue. and could this cause mechanical noise? can a ECU reset itself to think it is in a rover?

would it be easier to change the head for a ported and polished one?.

What upgrades would make sense if i am stripping the engine down

problem is worse at wide open throttle so mixture issue? 

Any and all help appreciated and needed 

[Jonathan Kay]

If you're lucky at least one expert will be along very soon.

3. About 3 months ago engine would not start at petrol station and blew the 20 amp ECU fuse (apparently normal ish) changed to 30 amp fuse ECU no power for about an hour

This has happened to lots of others and IIRC 30A (or (25A) is now recommended. I think that probably isn't related to the other problem(s).

They think it is a top end issue and suggested that i take head off and check the valves.

What upgrades would make sense if i am stripping the engine down

Are you thinking of doing it all yourself or paying someone else?

What upgrades would make sense if i am stripping the engine down

While you're waiting: DVA's pages on the K series, and upgrades.

Jonathan

[Ivaan]

Whereabouts in the country are you?

There's likely to be someone local to you who would advise.

A bit more info on the car and engine spec would help.

Is it EU2 or 3, dry sump, Apollo or standard

Milage, oil use?

Clive

[SM25T]

Rev limiter doesn't save you when the wheels drive the engine !!

[John Vine]

...and found bits of gasket about half playing card size in the bottom...

Did those bits look like sponge -- that is, with lots of small holes?  If so, they are probably degraded bits of the foam sump baffle.  If these subsequently blocked the oil pick-up, the result would be severe oil starvation and likely considerable bearing damage.  (I hope that's not what's happened!)

I did drop into 3rd gear by mistake a while ago and engine did rev high but should be protected my rev limiter ?

Any idea what road speed you were doing?  You may have over-revved badly (as SM25T says).

 

Some other thoughts...

As Ivaan says, a bit more info on model and engine would help.  Is it a VVC?  What year is the car? What ECU is fitted?  Is it the standard MEMS or an MBE?  (I'm wondering if it's dropped into some form of "limited operation" mode.)

When CC had the car, was it making all those noises and refusing to rev beyond 6K?  Did they hook up the ECU to a laptop and look for fault codes?  What valve-timing checks did they do?

JV

 

 

[revilla]

Your symptoms do sound like some kind of fairly significant mechanical failure. I can't see it being an ECU issue, especially if it is knocking badly at idle. It also sounds like the sort of thing that is really best not driven until you've got it diagnosed. Although they suggest top end and valves the compression check was OK - it sounds more like bearings to me from what you have said but obviously on here we can't hear the noises!

If you let us know the answers to Ivaan's question we should be able to help a bit more.

[polo.danny]

i am in goring by sea west sussex

it is EU2 with apollo tank its a 140 roadsport

Milage is just over 30000 but odo now stuck just as it changed over from 29999 

it dosen't use oil noticeably

I was doing about 90 on a track braked dropped down to 5th missed it and got third so probably 70 mph 

CC as far as i know did not hook it up to a lap top as they said that there is limited info from the ECU they did external checks on timing then took off the timing belt cover to check the pin that holds the cam drive wheel i think they said it could have snapped and the wheel mover out a tooth  but all OK and yes it was making all the noises at one time there was three mechanics and me all standing around it listening 

The bits in the sump were from the gasket the foam looks OK

chassis no.SDKRDKCR8X0021419

Engine no.KD21419 R8

ECU code 2318 MKC104152 silver box with large embossed x on top linked to coded imoboliser

Thanks

Danny

[polo.danny]

thanks i will have a read up on his pages

[revilla]

What is your rev limit and would 90 in third overspeed it? All depends on your diff ratio an wheel sizes etc. But my VVC160 which is also a 1.8K is limited to 7600rpm and that gives me 99 mph in third so you probably wouldn't have gone far over your limit.

[John Vine]

Thanks for the extra info.  So, it's a 1999 car with standard MEMS ECU, and probably a Supersport. (Is there a shift light between the speedo and tacho?)

Re the noises, without hearing them it's very difficult to advise, but I assume from your comments that CC didn't think they were serious?  Did they suggest you could keep on driving?

I'm still puzzled by the size of the bits in the sump.  I can't at the moment see how the standard gasket could produce bits that large, or even break up at all.  Do you still have the bits?  If so, could you post up photos -- from several angles if possible?

What did CC say about these bits?  

Did they suggest why the engine wouldn't rev beyond 5500?  Could the rev limiter be intervening in some way?

 

And I'm still wondering whether you've been suffering from too little oil.  

When was the oil level last checked?  

Was this done with the engine hot and running?

Do you have a non-return valve in the air-bleed hose between Apollo and cam cover? (Without this, the oil in the Apollo drains back to the sump and can give an over-optimistic oil-level reading if this is taken when the engine is not running.)

Are you measuring oil temperature via a sender in the Apollo?  Are you reading it from the water temp gauge via a two-position switch, or do you have a separate gauge?

JV

[Ivaan]

As JV says, sounds like a lack of oil issue?

How do you check your oil level? With the Apollo, it has to be done hot and running and can be very difficult to confirm on the dipstick.

But maybe it's not, as I'd have thought that it would have destroyed the crank by now. Can't understand why CC couldn't diagnose the problem??

[polo.danny]

Thanks for all the replies 

CC did not think it would totally give up and did suggest drive carefully for the rest of summer and investigate further in the winter but they did agree that there is a problem.

the bits in the sump are hard bendy plastic almost the size of a playing card but in one large piece (half playing card) and 4 smaller pieces. I can't seem to add photos 

I have been checking the oil regularly with it hot and running I thought that I had too much oil so drained a bit out hence finding the stripped thread in sump then fixing that and finding bits in the sump.

they are not sure what is stopping it rev over 5500 they thought timing but checked it and timing is ok. I thought that the ECU might have got confused but I can't find one to put in and try. Could I get one from a Rover and get it remapped if so which Rover / Land Rover.

Oil temp is being measured via the water temp gauge with the switch to change from one to the other.

there is a change light but no valve between the Apollo tank

 

 

 .

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan Kay]

I can't seem to add photos 

Do you want to upload them or link to them on an external server? Forum User Guide.

Jonathan

[Alan Archer]

How about popping it down to Partridge Green Motorsport, who are not too far from you or similar, at least they will be able to test drive it and hear the noise? 

[polo.danny]

I have been Down to PGM to see Andy. He changed out the ECU but still no power over 5000 rpm also changed rotor arm, coil, TPS, changed a couple of air pipes. Still not running well over 5000 rpm. I am going to change the fuel filter at the weekend. Got a few more sensors to check. Before I take the head off. 

Could lambda sensor be an issue at high RPM 

[John Vine]

Did PGM comment on the bits you found in the sump (pics would be good if you have them), and on the rattling?

One thing you could check re the reluctance to rev....

The rotor arm/spindle is attached to the camshaft with a small bolt.  These have been known to short to the camshaft, causing bad misfiring (as happened on my old EU2 SS-R).

JV

[polo.danny]

Took the bits with me and they are bits of sump gasket. i now have a new one with extra holes in and will get rid of the foam when i change the gasket  just incase.

i unplugged the  lambda sensor today and the car ran a bit better and good power and better sounding up to 6000rpm still not pulling quite right. i have ordered a new sensor so will be busy in the morning might even cut off the spare wheel carrier.

Its not misfiring but will check out the rotor arm spindle 

thanks for the advise

[Nick Chan]

If you feel comfortable running it up to 6k anyway, how about taking to to a rolling road such as Track n Road to see if they can investigate the problem? My sigma academy car had an intermittent misfire at 5k that was proving very difficult to find so i took it to the two Steves.

Took them an hour or so on their rig but eventually they found the problem.  Its a round trip of 400 miles for me to trailer the car over but well worth it and we couldn't find the problem locally - it turns out that the bolt holding the earth lead (engine mount to chassis) was very slightly lose and causing the problem.  Cleaned and tighted and all sorted.  The other earth leads were fine including the main battery to bellhousing one that you'd think would be all the car needs.  They only charged me for a couple of hours work so not a full RR setup and it was fitted between a couple of other jobs.

[John Vine]

                Took the bits with me and they are bits of sump gasket

Did PGM think that these bits could have restricted the oil flow into the pick-up?

Did they comment on the rattling noises?

JV

[polo.danny]

PGM not too concerned about the noise at low rpm. the oil pressure was always low when hot so possibly it was sucking the bits onto to the intake pipe. ive just done the sump gasket. I took out 5 ltr of oil and on PGM recommendation i am putting 7.5 ltr back in. I am going to  change the fuel filter and lamder sensor now and will also check the earth connectors from a comment above and go for a run later.

fingers crossed.

Danny

[John Vine]

I took out 5 ltr of oil and on PGM recommendation i am putting 7.5 ltr back in

Did the 5L include what was in the Apollo?

JV

 

[polo.danny]

Sump was off for about 4 hrs does appollo drain out. if not i may now have overfilled.

took car out last night runs smoothly at 4500 RPM  but still very noisy under load or higher rpm.

PGM are going to do a pressure test next week

[John Vine]

...does appollo drain out.

Well, some at least might have drained out via the sandwich plate, but to be sure, it's better to remove the plug at the bottom of the tank (take care, mind, the tank is thin ali), or take the filter off and let it drain that way.

I'm still puzzled by the noise.  Is this a deep metallic knocking sound (like hammer on anvil) or a higher-pitched tapping?  Can you tell where it's coming from (that is, bottom or top of block, or head area)?  A stethoscope would be best but a long screwdriver held with the point on the engine and the handle against the ear works quite well.

JV

[polo.danny]

it is a very loud knocking i can drive at 75mph at 4900 RPM and chat to the wife then as i put on more accelerator i get a little more speed and the noise starts. On the drive i can rev upto 6000 so it is worse under load. i am happy to have a chat on the phone i dont know if your allowed to put phone numbers on this page. I changed the filter so i guess all the oil out. i will video the dash and add to utube or here,

can i add video th this site.

 

 

[John Vine]

It's difficult to suggest what to do next, as it's all but impossible to diagnose engine noises at a distance (either here or on the phone).  If you can record something and post it on YouTube, that might give us a clue.  I don't think you can post videos here.

From your description so far, I still suspect oil starvation and possible bearing damage. Dropping only 5L of oil from an Apollo-equipped K suggests that the oil level has been dangerously low, and bits of gasket in the sump won't have helped. If this really is the problem, however, I'm surprised that neither CC nor PGM could diagnose it. Of course, you could consider getting a third opinion -- perhaps from someone like James Whiting.  I must admit that, if it were my car, I'd stop using it straightaway and get an expert to examine the engine asap.  That could well help avoid a big and expensive failure down the line.

A couple of thoughts...

You say it knocks at idle.  Is this when hot, cold, or both?  It would be helpful if you could describe the knocking in more detail, particularly the pitch -- is it high or low, tapping or clonking?

Start the engine, select 1st and, with handbrake on or foot on the brake, add some power while gently engaging the clutch.  Does it knock more, and with a deep, thudding sound?

A left-field thought...

It's just possible that this knocking is caused by some part of the engine/gearbox striking the chassis.  Have you checked the clearances, particularly between the gearbox and surrounding chassis members?  Is your rear gearbox mount central and tight?  Are the engine mounts secure and tight?

JV