A reluctant Starter - Now Sorted by S & C

[JNC]

If you  go the starter route there is one for sale on BC ,the other twin 

[Piers300]

I removed the starter motor today and it is part number: 0 986 018 240

It says on it: Remanufactured by Bosch, so it is a replacement s/m. It also has an alloy spacer.

Searching on the Internet and it comes up as suitable for a Ford Sierra 1.6.

M25 (Ian) has recommended a specialist in Chatham, so I will take it there on Monday for assessment 

 

Piers

[aerobod - near CYYC]

It isn't obvious in the real time display/dashboard, but it is obvious in the log file where all samples are collected, here is a graph of 20 seconds or so of sample log data, red line is battery voltage, blue engine RPM, green reset count (increments across the power cycle shown between suspend and resume):

[Jonathan Kay]

Thank you very much. Got it. I was wondering how that worked when you were using a device to monitor itself.

Jonathan

[Martin J]

Good luck Piers & I'm sure it will be solvable in the end. If it was me, I'd try bump or tow starting it from cold (without spraying fuel into the throttle bodies) & if it starts easily you might just be onto something. 

Good to hear your stories at the Sun Inn on Tuesday. 

[Piers300]

So today, I refitted the injectors which were tested and were fine and re-connected the ECU that was also tested and is working and test results say perfect. - no faults. I then fitted a new starter motor which cranks really fast, but still it will not start from cold. Just to check, I squirted in some fuel into the throttle bodies and away it went. I warmed it up and then turned it off and it did re-start. I then left it for an hour and tried to start and it would not fire. So no progress.

Next thing is to get the cable that connects between ECU and laptop and get Easimap down loaded. The only items not yet replaced are the in tank fuel pump and the TPS.

 

Piers

[Piers300]

Revilla. I was asked to measure the voltage between battery negative and if I recall the red wire on each injector when cranking and all of them had 6.4 volts.

A new battery was fitted a few weeks ago and a new starter motor today.

I don't have a suitable laptop or the cable for Easimap, but Arnie fitted a connector to the ECU, which he hooked up to his laptop. He is away on holiday.

No I have not consulted CC , as Chapman Cars did the initial service and thought they may have found the issue. It will go back to them now it is running again, but Arnie may want to have another go.

 

Piers

[revilla]

Sorry, post crossed with yours.

[revilla]

Piers,

If yours is wired according to the normal colour coding (it almost certainly will be), each injector will have a common supply feed which will be brown with a pink tracer and a uniquely coloured wire from the ECU which it grounds to drive the injector. On an EU2 engine these are yellow with a different colour tracer for each cylinder.

If you try to measure the voltage on the ECU-driven terminals you will get some kind of time-average across the injector's duty cycle which wouldn't be very helpful. Given that you were asked to measure the voltage on the same coloured wire on each injector, I'm assuming these were the supply connections, which are normally brown with a pink tracer. Yours may be red if you have a custom loom of some kind I guess. This would make sense.

However ... 6.4 volts? If the injectors are only getting a 6.4 volt supply whilst cranking, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they weren't able to operate. So in this case the engine would get no fuel. As soon as you add fuel to the inlet it fires, you release the ignition switch, the heavy load goes off the electrical system, the injectors start to work again and off you go.

That's one possible scenario that fits with the information you've given us so far, anyway.

Before spending any more money on anything, please measure the voltage across the battery whilst cranking. I know you have replaced the battery and starter motor at great expense but I think does need tracing through logically to diagnose it, and the first question is: Is the battery voltage dropping unacceptably under load (and anything like 6.4 volts is unacceptable)? If so, we need to work out why. If not, we need to clarify the voltage being seen on the supply lines within the engine loom during cranking to see if you are getting a significant voltage drop through a resistance somewhere between the battery and the supply to the injectors.

There are several places where you could be "losing voltage" along the route from the battery to the injectors. The supply is switch inside the MFRU, there are several wire joints and there is the main Engine / ECU fuse to consider. A poor connection or burned contacts in a relay can all introduce resistance which will cause a voltage drop under the heavy current load of cranking (the starter motor current itself doesn't flow through any of these but the fairly hefty current for the solenoid does). I have seen fuses that have developed resistance rather than fail completely. It may be worth swapping the ECU 30A fuse just to see if that make a difference.

[Jonathan Kay]

... you release the ignition switch...

Should that be "... starter switch"? Otherwise agreed.

Jonathan

[revilla]

Haha yes sloppy terminology. But you know what I meant!

[Jonathan Kay]

:-)

Jonathan

[Piers300]

Revilla -  I have a standard wiring loom and the 7 is a standard R300 with no modifications.

 

Piers

 

 

[Tomiam]

This is probably wayyyy off base as my mechanical knowledge is slimand im trying to remember an issue we used to have a van. I think it had a blocked breather pipe. It would exhibit those same symptoms ive read above.

Nightmare to get started once itd been left for ages as the vacuum left in the tank slowly pulled fuel back but once up n running you could restart without issue.

Anyways.. this may / may not be of use but i thought id throw it out there in case it helped.

[John Vine]

Piers,

You seem to be back where you started. My advice would be:

• Stop replacing (expensive) parts willy-nilly
• Beg borrow or buy an old laptop with an integrated RS232 serial port (XP or maybe Vista)
• Download Easimap5 from the SBD website
• Report back here when you've done that for advice on what to do to interrogate the ECU
• In the meantime, check the voltages as per revilla's excellent advice.

Courage, mon vieux, et bonne chance!

 JV

ETA: Apologies for the appalling formatting on my Windows phone!  Fixed -- plus the dodgy autocorrect...

[Ivaan]

I had something similar on the R1 at Oulten Park last year. Track day had to be abandoned.

Eventually traced it to be a couple of snots of silicone sealant in the fuel tank pick up, restricting flow to the pump.

I replaced the fuel filter, but this didn't cure it as the snots were in the pick up. Cured by blowing back through the fuel line, then cleaning out the tank.

Don't know how they got in there!

Clive

 

[Piers300]

A brief update. I found my son's old school laptop (he is now 32 years old) and this had Windows 2000 and an RS232 output and this evening, I downloaded Easimap 5.5 and it is working. The battery has had it, but once connected to the car and working,I will get a replacement battery.

I have one of my technicians making up a lead for me to the exact specification on SBD's web site. Hopefully that will be here in a few days. So slow progress but I am getting there.

It is a real shame as I have really lost the use of the 7 this year and only used the car for the IOW Blat

Piers

[Jonathan Kay]

I had something similar on the R1 at Oulten Park last year. Track day had to be abandoned.

Eventually traced it to be a couple of snots of silicone sealant in the fuel tank pick up, restricting flow to the pump.

I replaced the fuel filter, but this didn't cure it as the snots were in the pick up. Cured by blowing back through the fuel line, then cleaning out the tank.

Was the problem specific to starting with that?

Jonathan

[John Vine]

Well done, Piers!  We're all on the edge of our seats looking forward to the next episode!

JV

[Andrew Walker]

OT: I was just catching up on this thread whilst listening to iTunes when Chris Rea's track 'Auberge' came on - about one minute into the track, Mr Rea has a similar problem starting his Seven - it made me chuckle.

Good luck with getting it sorted Piers.

[SM25T]

Edge of seat getting a bit uncomfortable now !

[Piers300]

Update just to keep Ian and John comfy while precariously balanced on the edge of their seats. This has been going on so long now, that I have fallen off the seat too many times. Every time I change a component, I think it will crack the problem - but no.

I am told the lead to connect between the car and laptop is in the post to me, so I have to be patient and wait.

By the end of this coming weekend I hope to have positive news, assuming that the software tells me something not known. I just keep thinking it has to be a bad connection in a socket or a break in a cable. Finding it will be the problem.

 

Piers

 

 

 

 

[Piers300]

Another update Friday 2 Sept 3:00 PM:  The lead arrived today and this afternoon I connected it to the old lap top and it is all working. Hurray.

Please take into account this is the first time I have used this Easimap 5 software, so in reality, I have not really got a clue what I am doing and what I am looking at.

What I noticed is that the the message "connected to module" was flashing red when cranking as if the ecu was turning off and coming back on. The voltage display was saying 6.0 volts and fluctuating to around 6.88 and it returned to 12.66 when not cranking. This indicates a large voltage drop, so is this telling me I have either a bad power connection to the ecu or a bad earth from the ecu ?

So the readings I noted with the ignition on and cranking were as follows:

                                      Ignition On           Cranking Volts

Battery volts                  12.66                   I saw 6.0 and 6.88 on Easimap

Air Temp                         20                        20

Coolant temp                    17                       17

POT 2                               0

TPS IGH                           15.1                     13.4

Ignition advance                 29.5                   27.9

POT 1                                0

TPS v.s. Speed                 1.9

Injection Timing                 3.16

Throttle position voltage    0.41

Injector duty cycle              0                           3

Is there anything else that needs monitoring ?

Thank you all for your help in advance.

Piers

 

[Jonathan Kay]

The battery voltage during cranking is far too low.

Can you get another vehicle alongside and jump the batteries with fat leads and good contacts? Then take the other engine to 3,000 rpm and repeat that measurement.

Jonathan

[Paul Deslandes]

I agree with JK.

The voltage drop is unlikely to be due to ECU connections as the current drawn by the ECU only increases by a few amps as the injectors and coil start to be switched. Far more likely is poor battery connections, high resistance cutout switch if you have one, or a knackered battery.  You could prove the point by unplugging the injector and coil leads and seeing whether the cranking voltage still drops.

Otherwise I would suggest that you start by measuring the voltage direct across the battery terminals when cranking.  If that's reasonable move the meter negative lead to the engine block or chassis and repeat, which will show whether the connection from the battery to the chassis and engine is okay.  If still reasonable take meter positive lead to any 12V point in the loom and crank again.  I can't remember whether you have a cutout switch but they can be trouble if they go high resistance.

The TPS voltage looks a little high although different mappers have their own favorite settings so it may be fine.  360mV at idle is the 'standard' MBE setting but I know that some mappers do go higher.

If battery voltage proves not to be the problem, although I must say it is looking a bit that way, If it would help, you could download the ECU file to your PC, it'll have a .ecc name extension, and email it to me and I could have a look to see if there are any obvious settings that you could tweak.

Paul