Area Representative Piers300 Posted June 30, 2016 Area Representative Share Posted June 30, 2016 I have an R300K built is 2004. I have been having starting problems for quite some time (see separate posts). The engine has had the coil, distributor cap, rotor arm and all HT leads replaced (it has a good spark) and the battery cranks well and is on a conditioner. The car has an MBE 72908 ECU running standard software 967BC474.It has just been serviced and the Non Starting fault was thought to be the MFU relay which was replaced. When at the garage being serviced, it started every day on numerous occasions for about a week. However, once driven home and left overnight, it then would not start.When starting from cold, the engine just cranks and does not fire. However, if you squirt some fuel into the Throttle bodies, it starts and runs first press of the button. It continues to run fine and will restart if not left for too long. I did a 70 mile trip last Saturday with no problems and stopped on the way to re-fuel and it started without issue.The fuel filter was replaced at 19782 miles and it now has 26000 miles on the clock. When at the garage, the fuel pressure from the in tank pump was checked and was good, so it is unlikely the filter is blocked or the pump is faulty. The Toad alarm is working and does what it should.Any suggestions why it will not start from cold. I have measured the resistance of the water rail temperature sensor, which was 2.67K. A friend measured his and it was nearly identical.All suggestions where to look gratefully received. Piers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted June 30, 2016 Member Share Posted June 30, 2016 What's the lowest battery voltage you see while cranking hot and cold?What type of starter?Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john milner Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Others have said the R300 has a lack of a cold start routine in the ECU compounded by not having a IACV. I would check if poor staring is a feature or a problem before spending any more money.http://www.lotus7.club/forum/techtalk/cold-starting-r300 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prangerman Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 I had the same problem with my 2004 R300K. It was a real bu99er to start from stone cold. It could take 5 or more cranking attempts before it would finally fire up. I never did get it cured. With a engine upgrade including moving to coil pack and with a K6 Emerald it is much better though the mapping needs tweaking to get to start first time from cold. It now fires first time but then dies immediately. It almost managed to fire and stay running first time this morning... Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Piers300 Posted June 30, 2016 Author Area Representative Share Posted June 30, 2016 Thank you for your responses - so I am not alone with this issue.When I crank the car from cold, there's is nothing - it does not fire on any cylinder. However a squirt of petrol in the T/B's and away it goes and it continues to run. This discounts low battery voltage, but I will check cranking volts drop. The problem is that it did not do this before, as I have had the car for 6 years. The battery is 6+ years old and probably needs to be replaced.Piers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted June 30, 2016 Member Share Posted June 30, 2016 However a squirt of petrol in the T/B's and away it goes and it continues to run. You've homed in on the fuel supply with the squirt test.This discounts low battery voltage, but I will check cranking volts drop.It doesn't sound quite the same but I was thinking of Andrew Revill's identification of a Brise starter pulling down the voltage to the ECU so low that it momentarily failed. Have you read that saga? Could that take the fuel supply below the critical level or is the high pressure side sufficiently resilient? The problem is that the voltage drop is so brief that it may not be detectable with an ordinary multimeter. You could try the cold start with a jump to another car with the engine running fast and see if it makes a difference.Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Piers300 Posted June 30, 2016 Author Area Representative Share Posted June 30, 2016 Is this Kirchoff's Law. In my business, which involves large Diesel engines, when an electronic controller gets its supply from the same source I.e terminals, as the starter motor, we see virtually no voltage at the controller on cranking, as all the current is taken by the starter motor. As soon as the engine starts by manually giving it some throttle, the engine runs fine under the electronic speed governor controller.Maybe the battery needs investigation as it is six years old. Piers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted June 30, 2016 Member Share Posted June 30, 2016 That's the one.Maybe the battery needs investigation as it is six years old. Top up if appropriate Voltage while cranking Effect of jumping to whatever you can get close.JonathanPS: Have you told us about the big diesels already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian B Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Piers,Try starting from co,d with a second good (big) battery in parallel with the 7's (or as above with jump leads from another car).It may be the fuel pump isn't producing enough flow when cranking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Piers300 Posted June 30, 2016 Author Area Representative Share Posted June 30, 2016 New Banner 530034 just ordered. Let's see if that makes the difference. Piers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Piers300 Posted June 30, 2016 Author Area Representative Share Posted June 30, 2016 Hi IanI will use the electric fence battery in parallel with the existing battery, as it is huge and give it a go on Friday. The new battery I just ordered does not arrive till Tuesday and hopefully it may do the trick. As you know this has been ongoing since IOW Blat 2015. regards Piers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Piers300 Posted June 30, 2016 Author Area Representative Share Posted June 30, 2016 Jonathan - having been in the generator manufacturing industry since 1971 and for the last 23 years doing diesel and generator control systems, I am an official bore on large diesels and generators, so stop me before I start. Piers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted June 30, 2016 Member Share Posted June 30, 2016 :-)It wasn't you that did the marine engines with the staircase to the head?And do they really have throttles?Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 This all sounds very familiar. My old 1.8K SS-R (effectively, an R300 engine) was a right pain to start when cold, and still is according to the current owners (daughter and S-in-L). I've always understood the basic problem to be caused by the lack of a cold-start map, possibly compounded by the lack of an IACV (as John Milner suggests in post #3). It's also possible that the TPS is not set correctly for low throttle openings, and that the RBs need balancing. Have you asked CC for their thoughts and advice?JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Piers300 Posted June 30, 2016 Author Area Representative Share Posted June 30, 2016 JonathanNo that was not me on the marine engines.You are right, there is no throttle. I did not want to go into technicalities, but with our integral actuator, mounted onto the fuel injection pump, with the cover off, you can give the fuel rack a prod with you finger and the engine starts. On a 24 volt system, I think we only had 2 volts on the speed controller when the engine was cranking and the starter motor was taking all the current.There you are - boring or what Piers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Piers300 Posted July 1, 2016 Author Area Representative Share Posted July 1, 2016 I just put a 115 amp hour battery in parallel with the existing Banner 30 Ahr and no change. It cranks fast but does not fire. Squirting some petrol into the Throttle bodies and it starts immediately and will restart if stopped. Piers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackb_ms Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 Ok so it's a fuel or a fuel / air mixture issue.What happen when you happen the throttle a little bitDoes it starts?Can you disconnect the fuel supply to the TB and crank the engine.Do you have fuel being pump out?Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Piers300 Posted July 1, 2016 Author Area Representative Share Posted July 1, 2016 Jack - thanks for your input.Nothing happens when the throttle is opened either a little or a lot. It does not start or even fire on any cylinder.it was in for a service last week and they checked fuel pump pressure which the said was good. Initially, i thought the in tank pump was duff, but it is working fine. Once you squirt fuel into the t/b's, it starts and runs well and will restart if stopped and is still warn.it is going back to the garage at some point, but I just do not like being beaten. Piers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Piers300 Posted July 1, 2016 Author Area Representative Share Posted July 1, 2016 Jack - thanks for your input.Nothing happens when the throttle is opened either a little or a lot. It does not start or even fire on any cylinder.it was in for a service last week and they checked fuel pump pressure which the said was good. Initially, i thought the in tank pump was duff, but it is working fine. Once you squirt fuel into the t/b's, it starts and runs well and will restart if stopped and is still warn.it is going back to the garage at some point, but I just do not like being beaten. Piers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prangerman Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 Do you get a vacuum whoosh when you open the filler cap? That was a symptom of my fuel starvation problem. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Piers300 Posted July 1, 2016 Author Area Representative Share Posted July 1, 2016 Just tried removing the filler cap and no whoosh. I tried starting and it cranks but does not fire at all. Piers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave J Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 sounds to me like cranking enrichment is not sufficient, CI is normally determined by water and air temperature. I would try disconnecting the ecu water temp sensor and the air inlet temp sensor one at a time, the ecu will then revert to circa 20c ambient temp ( not far off reality at the moment) and see if she is better - then if so, order new sensors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bottrill Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 I have an R300 K on RBTB. From my hours of research on similar issues I have concluded the following which has helped and is now down to around 3 seconds of cranking before firing up. As has been posted, no real cold start help on these things.Check the base voltage of your TPS (search through my threads to find a good guide I posted) and adjust accordingly.spend a bit of time setting up the balance and idle of your RBTBs (again old threads of mine with the links). Re-check the TPS again after. These things are very sensitive.I have also replaced all the ignition components. The car runs quite rough when started from cold but it does now idle and start without needing to use any throttle. Once warm the car drives really nice and is as responsive as you would expect from a well setup RBTB intake. Happy to have a chat over the phone if I can be of any help. Just drop me a PM.Hope this helps.LEE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 ....cranking enrichment is not sufficient...I'd agree in principle but my understanding is that there's no enrichment on this particular model.JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Piers300 Posted July 1, 2016 Author Area Representative Share Posted July 1, 2016 Thanks everyone for your input, so will give it a go at the weekend.Piers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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