griffchris Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 I'm trying to remove my uprated front brake calipers (420R), they are loctited in place with 2 star headed bolts. I purchased a star socket set from Halfords today, and set to it - the E12 socket kind of fits, but its chewing up the bolt head, so I don't think it is the correct socket type. The bolt head has a couple of markings - "10.9" and , I think, "BC".From reading it appears there are "Torx" and "Torx plus" standards - not sure this is relevant, does anyone know what socket I need to get a proper purchase on these??ThanksChris/sites/default/files/images/users/12129/xlarge_20160412_212849_resized_0.jpgThanks Jonathan!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Kay Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Do you want to upload the photos to this site or link to them on another server? Forum User Guide.Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Kay Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Don't think I've heard this mentioned before. Presumably you've found this sort of thing:http://www.pemnet.com/images/design_info/torx_vs_torxplus.jpgJonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffchris Posted April 12, 2016 Author Share Posted April 12, 2016 Thanks Jonathan, I've edited my post above to add a photo. I looks like the E12 socket I have should fit but it is a wee bit loose and I don't want to round off the bolt head any further. I am having to put a lot of force through it against the loctite. E10 is too small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrightpayne Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Sometimes tightening first is enough to crack the loctite.Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Kay Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 I don't understand the photo: is it with the socket on the bolt? Or is it a female end of the bolt?(AFAIK normal Torx male bits are identified with T. External fittings (male on bolt, female on tool) are identified with E.)Could you add a photo of your E12 tool?Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffchris Posted April 12, 2016 Author Share Posted April 12, 2016 The photo is of the bolt head, not the socket. This link here shows a similar bolt rather better. Excuse the poor description, but it seems to be the rounded protruberance onto which the splines sit that prevents the E12 socket from sliding on far enough to get a really good grip.As an aside, my calipers are different to the uprated front calipers shown on the Caterham parts website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Kay Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Got it. The fit should be very good, and I'd look for an external Torx Plus socket. And there are two families of those!Do you know the source of the callipers?Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffchris Posted April 12, 2016 Author Share Posted April 12, 2016 Thanks again Jonathan. Looks like the external torx plus as you say. The calipers are the original calipers supplied with the kit as delivered to me last September. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SM25T Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 The bolt location looks very odd from the photo. Seems to be right on top of the pads .... going into the caliper body. Quite a different design to what I expected to see ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankee Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 The calipers look radially mounted. Presumably there is a bracket to which the caliper is bolted and that bracket is fixed to the upright? Can you unbolt it from there, like "traditional" Caterham-type calipers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted April 13, 2016 Area Representative Share Posted April 13, 2016 Presumably there is a bracket to which the caliper is bolted and that bracket is fixed to the upright?I've noticed that the latest cars have a different upright with bosses to accommodate radial calipers.There also seems to be a couple of different factory fit options with both two and four pot radial options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffchris Posted April 13, 2016 Author Share Posted April 13, 2016 Yes, I spoke to parts today and they confirmed these are a new upright/caliper configuration. They didn't know what the bolts were either - but are going to get back to me.Last night I managed to coax the bolts out of one caliper using the E12 Torx socket, but on the other side (the side I tried 1st), the bolt heads are too rounded off to get a purchase. Doing a bit more research, I am fairly certain that these are External Torx Plus bolts (M10 x 70), which have their own specific socket range, denoted EPxx, I found comments such that using a standard Torx socket on a Torx Plus bolt is likely to lead to damaged bolt and socket I have ordered a Torx Plus socket set, in the hope that these will still get purchase on the damaged bolts, I have also ordered a bolt extractor kit as a back up..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Kay Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Look forward to seeing if the next ones fit. And my money is on them doing just that.If there's enough head left there might be ways of getting the bolt out before you resort to extractors. Experts often recommend welding something onto it that gives you some leverage. I try cutting a slot with a Dremel.JonathanPS: And your experience might have saved someone else's bolts! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrightpayne Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 could you switch to a more readily available bolt type once out - cap head perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffchris Posted April 13, 2016 Author Share Posted April 13, 2016 Yes, you read my mind, I've just been looking at M10 x 70 cap heads. The External Torx bolts are grade 10.9, but I can only find the cap heads in 12.9 (i.e.higher grade - I've looked at Namrick, Westfield and a few other websites) - would this be a problem (?impact on torque values etc)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrightpayne Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 I'm no expert but I'd use a 12.9 instead of a 10.8. Its all to do with tensile strength - higher the number the stronger the bolt.Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR400D Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 A 12.9 is higher tensile strength than 10.9, of course, but unless what you are bolting them into is strong enough to allow you to increase the applied torque there's no point changing.Further, the higher tensile bolt is also more brittle and more susceptible to failure cause by cyclic loads such as seen with repeated heating and cooling.I'd stick with what's specified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elie boone Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M10-X-1-25-x-20-30-40-50-60-70-Hexagon-Head-Flange-fine-thread-bolts-black-10-9-/231821112751?var=&hash=item35f99d75af:m:mO19LYWtYpb9YFobw-6DQdQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffchris Posted April 14, 2016 Author Share Posted April 14, 2016 Good thought, but the head diameter (22.3mm) is too wide to fit into the recess in the caliper body - hence why cap head (16mm head diameter - same as the external torx head flange) seems a better bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted April 14, 2016 Area Representative Share Posted April 14, 2016 If buying alternative bolts, you also need to be sure what pitch to buy.It's more common for M10 fixings to be 1.5mm pitch rather than the 1.25 that JK links to.Like for like repacement would be a more sensible option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Kay Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 I wasn't intending to suggest any bolts... just trying to identify the head. Or did you mean elie?Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garybee Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 If the head's too chewed up to use the sockets when they arrive...1st option would be to weld an old socket on and turn that off. If no welder available I'd grind the head off, withdraw the caliper over the remaining shank then turn the lower section out afterwards. Once the clamp of the bolt head is released the rest will probably turn out with your fingers. If you try and use an easyout before releasing the clamp you'll probably just snap it and have a whole new problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR400D Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 On the subject of replacing the Torx + with cap heads or hexagons, does anyone think that would be an issue?From what I've found out Torx heads were originally designed to enable greater torque to be applied to Phillips/Posidrive type screws, because the Torx resists 'cam out' better. They were also used as tamper proof fixings when Torx tools weren't so widely available and that was the original use for the male type Torx bolts. They have no advantage in terms of torque application over a cap head or hex head.So there seems no reason at all why these particular bolts couldn't be replaced by cap heads or hexagons, assuming, of course, the same thread and material spec is used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ. Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 In you situation, I would buy the same bolts again.I suspect that if you'd had the correct tool to start with they would have come out OK. My experience of hexagonal drive v old style torx is that the hex ones are more likely to give trouble. I had never heard of Torx plus and would have had exactly the same trouble if it makes you feel better. Duncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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