robmar Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 So David - just to clarify your thinkingas in your post except5 - anything goes 210 bhp+ , list 1b (road going)6- Catch all anything goes list 1c ( modprod lite)7 - modprod anything goesAs per Richard - anyone planning to run 1c tyres at all? especially from last years class 3 / 4 ?My proposal was based upon the answer ot that being lots, so maybe my assumption was incorrect...Maybe all this 1c business has been blown out of proportion.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliW Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 My tyres are pretty much at the end of their life, so I'll go with the flow. But I think we should be on 1Bs.A 175 class 3 would not be a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Bowler Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Playing Devils Advocat (a bit) on Class 4 power. For class 2/3, the most popular car is/was a 1.6K Supersport. This was rated 135BHP. The class limit is 150, so people find some or all of the "missing" 15bhp with head porting, bigger TB, verniers (or in some cases just drive well and prove 15bhp is insignificant). 150 is also about right for most Sigmas, some Zetecs and some Crossflows, and standard 1.8Ks.For class 4 the limit is currently 190. Given that many 175 bhp cars may have been fettled a little, 190 seems about right. Anyone with a 175bhp car has a suitable class. Increasing the class 4 limit to 210, but leaving 2/3 as is leaves too much of a gap for anyone with 175. So leave class 4 at 190 (UNLESS you want to raise the limit for class 3, which would then cause a problem if you later want to merge 2 & 3 when the tyre situation is clearer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikes Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I will restrict my comments to what we should do for Class 4.It has been pretty clear over the last few years that the higher power classes are short of numbers, which probably shouldn't be a surprise as we have a high proportion of 'experienced' competitors with a limited shelf life.............As we have struggled for numbers it is worth making some change to see if we can attract more people into the Class - so I would agree that a 210 bhp limit is worth a try especially if it fits into the current/recent Caterham range (which i suppose it does with the R400) and maybe attracts a few who would otherwise have had to go into class 5 but would have felt they were at a significant disadvantage. I think the only sensible option is to go with the 1B tyres - most of us replace them after a couple of seasons anyway so it is not that great an additional expense. Obviously it means Stuart would have to buy 2 new sets but you cannot account for everyone!Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon.Rogers Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leg Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Simon,Do you know for definite that Leaders etc are going for Mod Prod Lite? If other clubs do, I think there is more reason for L7C to run a 3b,3c,4b,4c, Class system.If I only did L7C events I would agree with Mike 100%; but the problem is that most clubs are not re-setting their records for Road Going Classes, so competing on 1b's is going to be pretty pointless (literally!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david nelson Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 What is evident so far is that only about 8% of compeditors have contributed to this thread. It is therefore difficult to have a true picture of where this may go. I just wish people would look at the championship not what is best for them. Although we are discussing 2016 some of the decisions will shape our championship for years. I think we will see the end of list 1a and 1b tyres to just road going e marked . This will be the end of class 2 and 3 as we have it today. What we have is an opertunity to make our classes more inclusive for our members.i feel there is little value discussing this much further as currently it's like a group of mats down the pub. That's not a bad thing , but could do with the other 92% to join in.Where is the beer. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon.Rogers Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 David - mates not mats - but hey you never know :-)However I agree with everything you said.Lyn - I do not know 100% about Leaders but the last contact I had a couple of weeks ago it was very likely as was the Midland. I will send some more emails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david nelson Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 *ears*Two many bears Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team Mcalvert Posted November 25, 2015 Leadership Team Share Posted November 25, 2015 Hi David - I suspect that quite a few competitors (like me!) are watching from the sidelines, currently still unsure of what the optimum solution for the championship may be.However, can we explore your comment that "I think we will see the end of list 1a and 1b tyres to just road going e marked". Can I ask what you base that on? Asd I see it, we have only ever had "Road going e marked" as far as the regulators are concerned, it's just been that the MSA has chosen to then separate these into List 1A, 1B (and now 1C).Whilst I fully appreciate that over time, tyre marking regulations will become more and more stringent, I feel that there will always be a market for "pure road" and "track-biased" tyres, and that as ever, technology development will provide (maybe at a cost?) higher performance track tyres for those who want them. Am I missing something? Merging Classes 2 and 3 would be a major step, and I want to make sure that any action we may chose to take is for valid reasons.All the best, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gill E Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I too have been quietly watching from the sidelines, mulling over the various views from people more verbose than me, but as there are people who think that the silent majority don't care, here are my views ....I think merging 2 and 3 would be a mistake!I think that (unless you have a crystal ball) we do not know AS A FACT what the future holds - there are lots of people offering their best guess but in reality these are GUESSES. Let's not make the mistake of making fundamental changes to our championship based on which way the wind is blowing today.We want the Championship to be inclusive and many people read this as meaning "what cars to Caterham sell and where will these car fit into our class structure" - but what about the raft of people who are competing in other Championships in Caterhams who don't compete in our Championship? I think we do need to keep half an eye on what the other National B (non race) championships are doing. We do not want to restrict our pool of potential competitors needlessly.I have views on scoring but will post these elsewhere Gill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david nelson Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Michaela good question so I think the following will happen.the EU have changed what will and will not be available for sale. If my understanding is correct the reason we are in the position we are is due to the EU and the changes they have made. We know that there is further change a head with no f rated tyres. All road tyres will be E rated or better. The result will be less sticky rubber. Before the tyre manufacturers could do say ZZR's in super soft a24 and be road compliant now they can not.i think we will find that as E rating comes in we will see little difference in performance between 1a and 1b. They will also last the same amount of time. This will either lead to the MSA changing tyres to road going e marked and have no 1a/b or individual championship will change the tyre rules. It was not long ago when 1b were band from some championships.i hope you can follow my thinking about tyres.the class structure is intertwined and I do not feel 2 150bhp classes is right for reason already explained. davidGill: it is not that the ones being silent do not care, and if this is how it's come across sorry. It that with so few posting I not sure the value of the same people rabbiting on. We know it takes time how many years did I say class 4 should be 210bhp? From the few posts on this thread it looks as if it might happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon.Rogers Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 FYI WSCC have effectively decided to take all their classes ModProd other than their novices. They run a slightly different structure to us and usually run in the organizing clubs regular classes. What this means is they have been prepared to sacrifice wins on the day (to cars running slicks) in order to retain their records base and structure/rules.It does of course mean that they will all need FHR's. Don't worry about the log book as the V5 does the same job - I have that in writing. Picture inserted for you Simon Here is a link to a screen shot of their decision.WSCC rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaterBram Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 If the Westies at Curborough are representative of the championship then they were already closer to modified production than to roadgoing Whereas personally I feel we are more Road going championship than a modified production championship Whilst I can understand the desire in the higher classes to go to 1C and modified production I would be strongly against following the Westies route and going down the modified production route for all classes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 I agree CB... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Howard Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Also agree with Chris. The WSCC classes are very much aligned to the regional championships based on engine capacity and the cars are already close to mod prod spec.Our championship has successfully been designed to be as inclusive as possible and I think that classes 1-4 at least should be road going so that new competitors have to do as little to their car as possible.And I think for most of us the fun of competing is trying to get a better time on the day than the rest of the class. If everybody is on tyres that are 1 to 2 seconds slower than last year does that make it any less enjoyable?Tyre regs will change again in 2 to 3 years when F rated tyres are banned but we should deal with that when the time comes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Previous comments have stated that this is an ideal chance to make some radical changes to our class structures.I'm now thinking that the least changes we make would be for the better based on all the things we don't know. Future tyre specs and what other speed championships do, can only be based on speculation, therefore reacting with radical changes may be dangerous as we will only have to reverse them later on.Also, we have to be careful that changes made to attract more new competitors don't instead deter existing competitors, lets make these changes when we know more definitely what other championships are doing so we can adapt to suit, 1 more year surely wont make that much difference.The scoring system has to adapt to the tyre changes, but I think the class structures we have are not far off what is best for all, old and new. 210HP in class 4 is a small enough change that seems to be readily acceptable. As for mod prod, class 7 only?Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leg Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 I have competed frequently with the WSCC in regional championships, running with them in Road Going Class 2B. The cars that compete in 1B and 2B have to comply with the same rules that I do. However most of them already have a cage, extinguisher and many already use FHR - as I do.For most competitors in the WSCC it is a no cost decision to go to Mod Prod 'Lite' ie. Road Going on 1C tyres. I see this as a holding position on their part, until they see how things develop.The only problem is that they will not be competitive in other championships on the same set up (although they could run ZZR in WSCC and ZZS in Road Going, without altering set up).I would like to see L7C run a '1C' Class for the same reasons -( for some of us, this is a no cost route). If people feel that generally they want to keep Classes 1-4 as Road Going, I guess that for those of us in Class 3 or 4 who want to run 1C's, we will simply have to enter Class 5! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Lynn - that is fine but what if someone turns up in a more than +210/190/whatever car on list 1b, we don't have a class for them if class 5 is 1c, or are you proposing these potential entrants run to modprod rules and all that entails...Or have i misunderstood....So if we want to cater for 1a, 1b & 1c, and I have no problem for that, we have to have appropriate structured classes for them, to turn up and compete... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpbransfield Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Regarding Graham's post "if everyone is on tyres that are 1-2 seconds slower than last year........"Does that mean I am on those tyres already?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon.Rogers Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Please have a look at my proposal again. Thats what I have tried to do with somewhat overlapping classes using 1b and 1c.Forget the actual power breaks for the moment they are detail that can be altered later.(I had a far more radical idea but knew it would not get approval so we did not submit it).My idea was to retain the Classes as close as possible to existing so that competitors could run 1B. However i tried also to find a way of being inclusive for those wishing to remain on 1C. The difficulty is keeping the number of classes down. If 2 and 3 were to combine into a road going class a more efficient spread of power can be achived with the other classes.The reality seems that most people would prefer to try and retain a sort of status quo which is what I thought would happen but I felt it necessary to at least offer an alternative view to promote discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon.Rogers Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Yes it does - that means you could win next year. You need to vote off all those Class 3 chaps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leg Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Hi Rob - Sorry ! No wasn't trying to confine Class 5 to 1C's - just that all the posts before seemed to be advocating 1B's for Class 3 and 4, so I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that meant people thought Class 5 should have option to run on B or C.Good news is that I have just heard that one of the national Road going series will be re-setting their records for Road Going classes - this is the first one, so lets hope others follow.(I'm starting to flip flop like Oli).John B - you know they make tyres harder up North! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Lynn actually i looked at my proposal and I didn't account for them either....I would like to amend my proposal a little now that basically class 3 runners want to stay on 1b, my proposal allowed for a class 3 equivalent on 1c which i think isn't neededhttp://www.lotus7.club/regulation-change-proposals-20161 - 125bhp 1a - As is today no change2 - 150bhp 1a - As is today no change3 - 150 bhp 1b - As is today no change4 - 190 bhp 1b - As is today no change except for discussion on maybe 2105 - unlimited 1b - remove all exclusions BEC/Sequential6 Unlimited 1c (road legal- run to mod prod) - catch all for anyone wanting to run 17 Modprod - as is today no changeworkable? rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon.Rogers Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 I think that's where we will end up Rob personally. Perhaps class 4 @ 210 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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