F355GTS Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 It seems my cold starting problems are back or maybe never went away Car has been sitting in the garage going thorugh various non engine upgrades and started fine when it was a bit milder (air temp around 10 degrees) after a week away a few weeks ago, however went to start it on Thursday and the same symptoms are back namely it fires but won't catch and idle, repeated attempts to start ultimately result in it flooding (removal of plugs shows them soaked in fuel) Clean and dry plugs and still it won't start (despite being jumped off another car with engine running) flooding again. Cleaned plugs again checked that getting a good spark which they do, use compressed air to dry bores but still won't catch reverted to Mems ECU, cleaned and dried plugs and dried bores again and eventually it ran very roughly until hot then it settled down to a steady idle (well as steady as you can get with a Mems!) refitted Emerald and it starts and runs fine when hot or warm I've tried introducing throttle whilst cranking but it seems to make no difference, also reduced and increased fueling and cranking advance but no improvement The car has new plugs, distributor cap, plug leads, throttle pot, crank sensor Any ideas? it's driving me demented to the point of attacking it with a large hammer if I can't sort it ☹️ Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 Ask Jue Thompson for a copy of his map? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F355GTS Posted February 2, 2003 Author Share Posted February 2, 2003 Mav I think Jue is running those posh Roller Barrel thingys or at least the PTP/Jenvey style TB's unfortunately mine's on the old KV6's Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Mark, Check that you have the latest crank tooth recognition software installed in your Emerald. If you have then I would look at load site zero speed site zero on your injection map and try increasing the fuelling by 10 points at a time and see if she starts. Mine was always hard to start from cold until this was sorted it now starts first time every time. Its no good me giving you my settings as I run massive 380cc injectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Mark, Are you running the IACV? I can't remember. I played extensively with my cold starting compensation with the IACV until I got a good start. It always needed a very quick blip of throttle but settle down thereafter. It needed just under 100% IACV opening at first, regardless of ambient temp. Worcs L7 club joint AO.//Membership No. 4379//Azure Blue SLR No. 0077//Se7ens List Tours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F355GTS Posted February 3, 2003 Author Share Posted February 3, 2003 Rob I'll contact Dave and check the software version however do you think it needs more fuel? with all the flooding going on I thought it would need less??? Nigel I am running the IACV and it's set to 100%, I think the Map was a mixture of yours and Nicky Butt's? plus a bit of Jue Thompson's cold running Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Ahah, I had a few problems with my IACV sticking at extremes. I never set it to 100% fearing it might stick open, but in practice it tended to stick closed if I hadn't used the car for a few days. Might be worth checking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 We might get onto topics of religion here, but I don't believe in mucking about with load site 0, speed 0. To my mind, this should be a running site, with appropriate fuelling to cope with idle speed dropping (say lifting the clutch without any throttle, while crawling in traffic). The fuelling correction for starting should be kept in the cranking correction settings - its what they are there for. In order for your temp correction for starting to work properly, you need to do it this way. It is very easy to lose your settings for warmer starting if you muck about with LS:0; SS:0. Agree with Rob that it is all in the fuelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 Mark, Could be that you have too much fueling at LS0 SS0 what figure do you have ? I have to admit I am not a fan of the air idle control system of controlling the tick over especially on the VHPD it seems to give a terrible rough tick over at best. I also thought that Dave Walker usually got the car idleing then disconnects the AICV , the tickouver is then controlled by ramping up and down the ignition timing ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allegro Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 Mark I have occassional starting and idling problems with my SLR. I found that the IACV was sticking. A good dose of wd40 on the valve cured it. Andy Mac C7 GON 😬 Team Langoustine. Hard Core Prawn here 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F355GTS Posted February 4, 2003 Author Share Posted February 4, 2003 I'll check the IACV again. don;t think it's sticking, I've reverted to an earlier form of the Map which has greater cranking and cold start fuel and it started last night with a touch of throttle, going out in a moment to try again Rob the fueling at 0,0 is 51 Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 Mark, site 00 at51 would seem to be about right. You could try going down to say 40 and see if starting improves. Also have a look at your cranking enrichment should be around 75 70 65 55 50 46 44 42 40 35 35 35 35. I know this is basic but the tiny foam air filter for the idle control valve is not blocked up is it, its under the inlet manifold ???????? If in doubt remove it and try starting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F355GTS Posted February 5, 2003 Author Share Posted February 5, 2003 Rob Air filter on IACV is new, last night it started again 2nd time with a touch of throttle so I thought I'd cracked it, enough anyway to live with, went out and tried again this morning and it fired a few times but wouldn't catch, eventually it flooded and I've left it for now to dry out. I've checked the IACV is operating and it appears fine (I lubricated it just in case) Startup enrichment is 90,80,70,60,40,28,26,24,20,20,20 I've tried reducing this but it doesn't seem to help Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 Mark, What are your fuelling and ignition settings for the first few speed sites and the first couple of load sites? Cranking enrichment is only part of the story. In normal running, the Emerald interpolates load and speed to determine the correct fuelling and ignition. This means that when running at an idle of 1100rpm, the fuelling and ignition are affected by speed sites 2(1000 rpm) and 3(1500rpm) and probably by the load sites 0 and 1 as well. If you reset the throttle pot having set the the idle position, only load site 0 will contribute, which makes life easier to deal with. I reset the throttle pot calibration every time I adjust the idle throttle opening (not IACV). When cranking, the engine turns at speeds of ~100-400rpm, seldom any more. The Emerald does not interpolate the speed sites for cranking and just makes use of speed site 0. It might make use of more than one of the load sites for the reasons stated above. If you crack open the throttle while cranking it will definitely interpolate between load site 0 and load site 1. For this reason it is important that you have a set of sensible values for both load sites before you start aiming at reliable starting. The Emerald determines that cranking has finished when the engine first turns faster than 500rpm for the first time. It immediately starts interpolating the speed sites and reduces the cranking enrichment to 50% immediately and then ramps it down to nothing over a period of 10-15 seconds. For this reason it is important that you have a set of sensible values for speed sites 0,1 and 2 before you start aiming at reliable starting. So lets see your map values. Also, in this cold weather a slightly dodgy battery can mean that your cranking voltage drops to the point where the Emerald switches off. It might be worth giving the battery a boost during cranking - either keeping a conditioner on the battery, jump starting or connecting a booster. The Emerald algorithm for fuelling is: BASE_VALUE = base_map(0, ) .... if cranking OR: BASE_VALUE = base_map(,) ... if not cranking CRANKING_CORRECTION = BASE_VALUE x cranking() - ... if cranking OR: CRANKING_CORRECTION = BASE_VALUE x cranking() / 20 x (10-) ... if just started OR: CRANKING_CORRECTION = 0 ... once the engine has been running for 10 seconds AIR_CORRECTION = BASE_VALUE x air_fuel() COOL_CORRECTION = BASE_VALUE x cool_fuel() x cool_enrich() finally giving: INJECTED_FUEL = BASE_VALUE + CRANKING_CORRECTION + AIR_CORRECTION + COOL_CORRECTION where: - '' is the throttle pot position - '' is the engine speed - '' is the coolant temperature - '' is the coolant temperature - '' is the number of seconds that the engine has been running since it first turned at greater than 500rpm N.B. All lookup functions interpolate between map values on all axes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F355GTS Posted February 5, 2003 Author Share Posted February 5, 2003 Peter blimey lots of questions and answers! I've been keeping the battery on a conditioner and all of the starting activities are with a jump start attached as the car only has a Hawk 30 and that doesn't last long! the Map info is below Ignition Load site 0 Speed 0 5 degrees 500 - 10 degrees 1000 - 10 degrees 1500 - 10 degrees Load site 1 0 - 14 degrees 500 - 14 degrees 1000 - 14 degrees 1500 - 20 degrees Load site 2 0 - 10 degrees 500 - 10 1000 - 10 1500 - 16 Injection Load Site 0 0 - 55 500 - 47 1000 - 36 1500 - 42 Load site 1 0 - 70 500 - 65 1000 - 61 1500 - 44 Load Site 2 0 - 88 500 -76 1000 - 71 1500 - 56 Startup timing advance is 5 degrees IACV is 100 % Coolant adjustments are ignition 9,9,8,6,4,3,1, Injection 40,32,25,17,12,10,5 Air temps are Ignition 3,2,1,0,0 Injection 8,6,4,2,0,0 Hope it provides an answer! thanks Mark Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F355GTS Posted February 5, 2003 Author Share Posted February 5, 2003 Well I tried to start it again this afternoon and same probles ie it fires but won't catch, I was unsure as I thought I didn't hear the IACV shut one time so took it out again to check it, activated it with it out and the piston shot out of the body 😳 maybe that's been the problem all along that it isn;t always operating I've put it back together (waiting for the glue to dry!) and will try it again in hte meantime does anybody have one they want to sell, lend, trade, give??? I've got a trackday on Friday so need to sort it tomorrow!! Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Mark, I reckon there are a few issues to sort out with those map figures. I will have a good look at it and get back to you... The thing to remember is that... it starts when its hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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