List 1B / List 1C Tyres

[GrahamV]

I run a Caterham in the Association of South West Motor Clubs (ASWMC) Hillclimb and Sprint championships and over the last few months there has been a lot of discussion regarding List ‘1B’ or List '1C' tyres for 2016.  I have followed the discussions on Blatchat and I see there are similar concerns in the L7C Speed Championship ..... hence this post.  

I have just seen an e-mail trail between one of my fellow competitors, Kumho tyres, the ASWMC coordinator and our MSA representative.  Some of the points below reinforce the comments already made on Blatchat but there are a couple of new points which I think are worth sharing.   The e-mails run to many, many pages but I believe the key points for me are –

From Kumho tyres (Motorsport) –

The V70A does not comply with the latest EU labelling legislation, which was introduced in November 2014.  The ‘Soft’ options do not meet the EU ‘rolling resistance’ requirements.  Kumho tyres can continue to sell these tyres that do not meet this new legislation with the old ‘E Marking’ for a maximum of 30 months.

Kumho, along with most other tyre manufacturers of track day tyres, is exercising the use of a clause which allows tyre companies to continue to manufacture and sell tyres which do not comply with the legislation by stating that they are "designed for racing purposes”.

Kumho have no plans to stop production of the V70A.  Any plan to replace the V70A would be ‘medium to long term’.

Kumho suggest ‘these changes mean that most Championships, which in the past have run the V70A, Proxes, R888 etc., will have to change their regulations to allow List 1C tyres for 2016’.  (see next paragraphs in this post – I don’t think this is a valid option for Roadgoing classes)

All currently e-marked V70A tyres will continue to be road legal for the life of the tyre. 

From our MSA / Technical representative –

‘Whilst the Blue Book reference S.11.6.2 will remain in the 2016 version, the one thing which will change is the content of List 1B (as your Kumho connection says in his 4th paragraph of his response to your enquiry - list 1C will become introduced and the content of List 1B drastically reduced.)

Unfortunately, because S.11.6.2 will not change, this means that any (what will be) List 1C tyres cannot be used in "Roadgoing" classes in 2016. What makes life even more complicated is that the new content of List 1B won't be known until, at the earliest, the Autumn when the "Tyre Committee" (fundamentally the manufacturers) next meet. 

As it is not possible to change S.11.6.2 itself, I am almost certain that it will not be possible for the ASWMC or any other Championship to move its 2016 goalposts to accommodate "what were" 2015 or earlier List 1B tyres. I have just rung MSA's Technical Department and they're inclined to agree with me’. 

From our ASWMC Championship coordinator –

‘This has been a common concern among Road going competitors since the first of them got their blue book with their licence. Our MSA Rep actually pointed this out to me probably way back in November, this enabled me to let me speak to or contact most of the registered contenders from last year to give them the heads up.

Apparently some manufacturers will be supplying (some are already) tyres that will comply with List 1b for 2016 but obviously competitors need to know if they will actually be on the list before they buy’. 

Here's hoping that our MSA Rep can get some sort of sense at Motorsports House at next weeks meeting, the logical thing would be to let the e-marked tyres be used until they were illegal for road use.

I hope this helps - at least it shows some of the issues under discussion and the general concern across all Hillclimb and Sprint competitors running in Production classes.

Graham V     

 

 

[robmar]

thanks Graham - I have pretty much decided I will run slicks next year, I had been considering this for a while but these new complications have steered me more towards that path...

rob

[GrahamV]

Latest update from our ASWMC MSA representative for your info .....

The public consultation will take place on the MSA website some time after/during the 4th week of June, you may wish to highlight this to your fellow "roadgoing" fraternity when you encounter them?

As for the subject not receiving any great attention from MSA, it is largely because the content of "List 1B" is determined by the tyre manufacturers and MSA plays little more role than co-ordinating that - when we are in a state such as that we find ourselves, the MSA are as bemused as we all are!

 

 

I do suggest you lobby the MSA (via their website) to get a satisfactory way forward for 2016.  I will be lobbying for -

• For 2016 any road legal e-marked tyre currently on list 1B can continue to be used.   e.g. any existing Kumho or Avon ZZRs can be used into 2016 until they fail the 1.6mm tread depth law.  Remember these e-marked tyres will continue to be road legal in 2016 and obviously a transition period is required to get through old stocks;
• Any list 1C tyre marked as 'for Racing Purposes Only' as per the new EU regulations will not be road legal .... and therefore should not be used in Roadgoing classes;
• I would expect alternative list 1B tyres to become available during 2016 - the MSA should review the situation again in Summer 2016.   

Hope this helps,

GrahamV

 

 

[Simon.Rogers]

So how does this work.  I saw Graham's post last night.

Then I posted some stuff this morning, Shaun has posted, and Rob and others and now in the Thread list Graham's post is showing as 13.30 or something at todays date 

[Shaun_E]

Something strange definitely happened with this thread but I don't know why. If I get any further reports of this happening, I'll get NDP to investigate.

[GrahamV]

I was just born awkward .....  

GrahamV

PS - For Simon ..... nearly a second off my PB at Wiscombe on Saturday .... Many thanks

 

 

[Simon.Rogers]

Cheers Graham - Excellent.  Meteor Dampers give you confidence to win again :-)

 

[dan4182uk]

I've just seen this linked on uphill racers - seems to have gone under the radar, a proposal for 1A only in road going classes:

https://www.msauk.org/assets/speedevents-15april2015shcactionsheet-forconsultation.pdf

[OliW]

Thanks Dan, I've sent my views and suggest everone else does too.

[Mark Durrant]

This is the first I have seen of this and do not recall seeing it mentioned in any MSA publication. If a consultation is to be meaningful it should be published to enable as a many competitors as possible to comment. Link to the document is here.

I have sent my comments including my disappointment at the way this has been publicised. 

[robmar]

although as mentioned on the UR thred there is no description as to what is List 1a come 2017

 

[Simon.Rogers]

They attempted to do this a few years ago also.

It may suit other national based classes but not us.

I will be commenting later.