Priming a dry sumped Duratec with oil.

[LawrenceR]

Hi All

I have a new build Supersport R (shameless plug) and am nervous about cranking for +30s to build oil pressure. I am asking if there is any way priming the galleries and filter to minimise the duration.

One thought I have had is to remove the oil pressure sender and rig up a bottle to feed in at this point using gravity. Then re fit sender and pour the rest of the oil in the dry sump tank/ cam cover filler.

any thoughts or ideas welcome

LawrenceR

 

 

[Jon Stewart]

On my dry sumped Vauxhall i just remove the spark plugs and crank.

If you remove the OP sender how will you know when you have pressure?

[LawrenceR]

I would only be removing the sender to try and fill the oil ways. I would re fit before cranking but there would be oil further round the system which could start to lubricate that much sooner.

[Pendennis]

Fill tank with oil, remove plugs and ignition coil pack/s, turn over until you see oil pressure and oil return back into tank, then your done. I'd of thought your oil charge in tank should be no more than 60% of the tanks capacity.

 

good luck

[Adrian Williams]

Don't worry about it Lawrence, just fill the tank, remove the plugs and crank as has already been suggested.

When built the bearing caps and other moving parts would have had some oil on them which will still be there while it turns over building up pressure.

 

[Jaggies Dad]

Can someone guide me - I'm close to running my 420R dry sump and probably foolishly followed the Build Manual section 15.7 which after the table giving the oil volumes for wet and dry sump says all variants are to be filled via the cam cover filler hole. I have so far put in 5L (so 1L to go) and nothing is showing in the dry sump tank so where is it going.

Is the manual the usual load of b*^%#^cks and I should have put it directly into the tank

Do I need to drain the engine and start again?

Help!!!

[ECR]

In a dry sump system the oil always sinks from the dry sump tank through the pump and into the sump, It takes a little while to do this... As soon as your engine starts, the scavenge pump will quickly drain all the oil from the sump to the dry sump tank . With 5 litres in the engine already, you have enough oil to run the engine, you can then top up as required

[Jaggies Dad]

That's great ECR but can I also ask what the correct level should be after running engine and for future top ups should I add directly to the tank or continue via the CSK cover filler cap?

 

[7 wonders of the world]

No do not try to ru it as the oil is currently in the wrong part of the engine - and the tank and therefore pressure pump is going to run dry until the scavenge pump has returned the oil and its gone down the tank and back via the fed hose to the pressure pump.

Drain some out via the blue plug and put it back in the tank.

Oil level should be 10-15mm below top tank baffle when running and hot.

[Jaggies Dad]

Thanks for that important guidance. To recap I currently have added 5L via the cam cover filler cap and none in the tank. To make sure I've got this right I will drain off around 2L from the engine sump drain plug and put this into the DS tank. I still have 1L to achieve the 6L stated by CC in the Owners Manual so should I put that into the tank before running? That would give me 3L in the engine and 3L in the DS tank.

Sound good?

[Jaggies Dad]

Has anyone got a detailed specification/schematic/description of the DS supplied by CC with the Duratech?

[7 wonders of the world]

Just drain it all from the engine and put it into the DS tank where it belongs !

[ECR]

Apologies Jaggies dad, 7 wonders is right.  At startup, you must have oil available at the inlet side of the pressure pump and with all the oil in the sump that's not the case. In your situation, I'd probably put the remaining litre into the drysump tank and run like that. The scavenge pump will pull oil from the sump and replenish the dry sump tank faster than the pressure pump drains it back to the sump (that's why its called a dry sump system). Provided your pressure gauge is showing pressure you don't have a problem. For peace of mind however, you may well prefer to drain the sump and start again..

A first startup is always a nervous time but i'm sure you will be fine (watch your pressure gauge)

[ECR]

What sort of dry sump tank is supplied with the Caterham Duratec install ? Is it a Pace easyclean tank (with a clamp halfway down its body )? If so the following from Roger King applies:

Oil Level Pace Easyclean Tank

The oil should be approx 1" below the top baffle, but you need to make sure the oil is warm first (doesn't need to be stinking hot). If you check with the oil cold, it can expand and come over the top when it gets hot and this is a bad thing.

The top baffle is there for two reasons - firstly it helps to stop the oil sloshing around during cornering/braking and secondly, the oil is meant to spiral down on to it from the inlet port and this is an important part of the de-aeration system which ensures there are no bubbles in the oil by the time it is sucked out of the bottom of the tank.

The exact level isn't normally crucial with these tanks. It's an excellent product and very tolerant of varying levels (unlike some bellhousing tanks)

In theory the level should be checked with the engine running, but in practice this is nearly impossible to judge due to oil flying everywhere. Just switch the engine off and check immediately; any drain back will be absolutely negligible.

[7 wonders of the world]

Depending on the tank used diameter etc I would check the height of the outlet on the tank as 1l may not be sufficient to coer it as most outlet are not at the bottom of the tsnk most use a tube which allows a central pick up off the bottom.

[jackb_ms]

On my 21, K serie dry sump, after a oil change or a after the winter break, I poured a little amount of oil in the cylinder via the plug hole.

Crank the engine until i see oil pressure, fit the spark plugs and start the engine.

The oil burns making a nice white smoke which disappear very quickly

Jack

[Jaggies Dad]

Many thanks to everyone. I clearly have a Pace Easyclean tank from what is described. I spoke with Derek Howell first thing this morning and he confirmed at the factory they put 3L in the engine an 4L in the tank (not the 6L stated in the Build Manual and the Owners Manual!) He advised to add 2L to the tank and crank her over to pump the oil into the tank. I duly did this and the oil did transfer but it was still well down in the tank. My real worry though was I had no oil pressure even though I had done 5x10 sec cranks so that had me worried. Derek advised that it would take around 30sec of cranking for pressure to build up the first time - and he was right, well nearly, it took 25 sec crank to whack the needle round to 3 bar. Now she immediately jumps to 3bar on any subsequent crank ( no firing obviously at this stage).

I estimate it will take another 1L to reach just below the baffle, which on my tank is 165mm below the rim of the filler. I'll leave it for now in case there is more oil lurking somewhere that will return to the tank when she runs st idle speed - a few days away yet.

So alls well than ends well I think.

thsnks again to all but I'd still like to understand exactly what my DS system really comprises if anyone has further info. One other question - how do you drain the sump, as opposed to the tank, as I can see an o buoys drain plug?

cheers everyone

 

 

[ECR]

Glad that parts over with a success .

Not sure on the Duratec setup but certainly on my VX there is no way to completely drain the oil. I run the engine so that the oil is returned to the dry sump tank, switch off and then immediately disconnect the pipework at the bottom of the dry sump tank. This drains most (but not all) of the oil. The only way (for me ) to remove all the oil is to drop the sump.

[Jaggies Dad]

Thanks ECR, let's see what others might offer.

[7 wonders of the world]

You can drain pretty much all the residual drained oil by removing the gauze filter in the sump pan (big blue nut) as this is at the lowest point in the sump, the tank is easily drained by disconnecting the feed hose.

Though as previously mentioned the pick up on the Pace is not right at the bottom and is a horizontal drilled pipe, so best take the tank out dismantle it and wash and dry.

I've had a drain plug put in my tank under the bottom to save taking the tank out!

 

Roger did you get my last message regarding your drainage?

[7 wonders of the world]

Roger

You don't need to drop your sump, just remove the scavenge pipe via the flanges into the pick up trough secured with the M5 cap screws with these off theres sod all left in the pan, easy to do as they seal with an 'O' ring.

If you want to drain even more you can pop the drive belt off the pump and spin it backwards with your finger and drain the scavenge pipework too.

On advantage of the Pace set up is you can prime the whole system the same way by manually spinning the pump until you get around 70PSI pop it back on and fire it up - no dry cranking needed

[ECR]

7 Wonders

Yes got your last message and am checking a few "facts". I know that I can remove the filters on the side of the sump to drain more oil from my VX but the pipework there is not very flexible and the O ring seals delicate. I didn't mention it as it probably wouldn't be relevant to a Duratec setup but I have made a 2 pronged "key" which fits into the holes in the dry sump pulley and drive this with a 90 degree butterfly air wrench. This pulls all the oil out nicely!

[Rob Walker]

I remove the oil from my drysump tank with CJ136 oil extractor.  Fabulous bit of kit hand pump to create vacuum it then sucks all the oil out in minutes, also good for diffs , gearboxes and even brake master cyinder

[ECR]

My Dry sump pump driver ....

[7 wonders of the world]

We used to do oil changes on the rally cars at service with the engine running, pop the scavenge line off the tank (usually boot mounted) and into a container and keep topping the DS tank up till you'd pumped around 10 L through the system - you could you similar with your tool Roger