Violet Elizabeth Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Have finally got round to removing the seat to find out why my newly fitted (not by me) 6 point harness crutch straps don't adjust. The lap and crutch both attatch to the same point on the chassis to the rear of the seat. In the case of the non-adjustable side (one side works, the other doesn't) the little metal bits that the harness loops round (which have a bend in the end) are both pointing inwards, pinching the crutch strap, meaning it can't be adjusted. Have swapped this round so they point twards the middle of the car, and now all is fine. Is there any reason why they should not do this (the other side is now in the same configuration) ? The guys who fitted it are very experienced seven people, so thinking perhaps they did it for a reason ? How this makes sense. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 I fitted a crotch strap to mine last week. I had 2 holes in the chassis rail that runs across beneath the front side of the drivers seat. I had to widen the holes a bit with a drill, but this seemed a much better place to mount them, and you dont have to remove the seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 how does that work 🤔 sounds like everything will be pulling at the wroing angle *confused* which seats do you have 🤔 HOOPY 500 kg R706KGU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 I think those holes in the front rail are for the side impact protection bar to bolt up to, underneath the floor... My racing pics, 7 DIY, race prep. Updated often here Photo's of the year here Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here Edited by - stevefoster on 19 Jan 2003 21:15:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenDriver Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Assuming that the crotch strap is bolted on to the same bolts as the 4-point how is it physically routed? Does it go under the seat and latch on or does it go over the top of the seat (under the driver of course). Also, my crotch strap came with two long bolts and two nylock nuts. I couldn't see what these would be used for given that you would be using the same bosses as the 4-point. (I have leather seats) Ideas? Edited by - SvenDriver on 19 Jan 2003 22:28:31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony pashley Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 The holes in the front. under-seat, cross member (where the side intrusion protector bolts through) are the original mounting points for an adjustable seat. I really don't think that's a good place to mount the crutch straps - as Hoopy noted. The best place for them is on the forward-facing lugs used originally for mounting the rear of the adjustable seat runners - although I'm told that more recent cars don't have these... that omission, along with bolting seatframes to the alloy floor skin seem like backward steps to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bafty Crastard Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 6 point belts are what they say they are, anchored at 6 pionts The mountings for the crotch strap are two "luggs" on the rear/bottom bulkhead rail, enlarge them and drill through the floor/seat underfloor strengthening rail, use alloy spacers (from Caterham) between the floor and the luggs R300 NUT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Elizabeth Posted January 20, 2003 Author Share Posted January 20, 2003 I have an adjustable leather seat (pre-S type), so the only attatchment point available is the same attatchment point as my old 4 pointer. Bolt goes through crutch strap "triangular-metal-thing" through a spacer and odd springy-washer thing, though the lap belt T-M-T, though a cupped washer into the available hole in the side of the car (there is something on the outside that the bolt goes in, under the wheelarch, but it it not a nut I don't think). The crutch strap goes round the outside of the seat runners and between the seatback/seat and under the drivers 🙆🏻. Just couldn't understand why the installers made the configuration of the two TMT's so that they pinched the material of the crutch strap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony pashley Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Just couldn't understand why the installers made the configuration of the two TMT's so that they pinched the material of the crutch strap. It's because that is not the way the the harness-maker designed them to be fitted. I guess this is a compromise that folk arrive at by using a mix of race and road optimised kit in the same vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenDriver Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 The rear lugs make sense. I thought they looked a bit insubsubstantial. However going through the floor as well would resolve the matter. It would also address why the extra bolts and nylock nuts. It would also explain why the crotch straps are so long. Given this is the fixing point then the next issue that arises in my mind is that on the leather seats the harness has to have a big loop over the leg rests before it reaches the harness buckle. This would mean that under load it would be effectively slackening off rather than going taught. If the harness was fitted perfectly I would have expected the rear fitting as explained with the buckle then rising vertically through the seat close to the crotch before locking into the harness. In that way any forward load would be tensioning it up. So, given all of this, why does having to drill them out to size and drill the floor and get spacers and get spreader washers seem so crap? Edited by - SvenDriver on 20 Jan 2003 09:43:34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Caterham parts told me the holes on the front cross member would be fine. This seems much more logical to me, whether it is correct or not. Is there much loading through the crotch strap? I would have thought not ( unless you are VERY manly ; -)). You can also lift the cusion up & put them away under the front ridge of the S type seat. To mount them on the other point (where the lap belts go?), do you have to remove the seat etc. Might leave it as they are unless there is a safety issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenDriver Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 The loading occurs in a crash - when your body hurtles forward. All of the straps need to stop this by going tight and then the stiching giving (so wiser men tell me). Given that you only tend to hurtle forwards it follows that all straps should not be fixed in front of you since that would lead to them going slack in a crash. Therefore the crotch strap should be fixed in such a way as it becomes tensioned under a crash. This is going to be either behind the seat or on the existing 4 points if really necessary. If it is mounted forward of the seat I cannot really see how it will do its job. This is something I'm going to have a look at in detail when I fit my own. Edited by - SvenDriver on 20 Jan 2003 21:39:56 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Good point Sven, hadnt thought of that. I had a quick look at the seat & runners tonight. The seat frame appear to be bolted to the runner by 4 (2 on each side) allen headed nuts. If I undo these, will the seat lift out & expose the lap belt attachment points, leaving the runners on the floor mounted frame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 most 6 point belts are 4 points with anti-submarine straps. i've got the monkey tail 6 point belts - these actually clamp your thighs down and back instead of just castrating you in an accident. sense of security and being secure in the car is HUGELY increased. the rear 6 point mountings are not fitted as std on a road chassis but are on race chassises i think. they can be retorfitted at a silly price as you need to reskin bits of car. or ordered from new. there is a worry about using the lap belt bolts for the crotch strap as it will "increase the loading on them". if you only have a 4 points there will be the same loading as 6points sharing the bolts. actually less as you'll be belted in better so the sudden yank as they load up will be less. you end up sitting on the crotch straps which then pass to the bolts through the corner of the seats. HOOPY 500 kg R706KGU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenDriver Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 TomB Leather seats are easy to remove in 2 ways: 1. Unscrew the allen bolts. There are 3 on each side. One is hidden by the side pads at the back of the seat. 2. Unbolt the seat and rails in one piece. I removed mine using the first method because it was easy with an electric screwdriver. This will give you access to all the mounting points. Hoopy What do the mounting points look like - are there bosses in the frame or do you use the protruding tags that some say are for the seats. How Do I tell which strap I have. Mine is a 24" V with each strip of the V being adjustable. Doesn't look like it belongs on a monkey.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Elizabeth Posted January 21, 2003 Author Share Posted January 21, 2003 Leather seats are easy to remove in 2 ways Only if they are the newer leather seats. Older ones do not have the allen bolts, as the runners and seat are one entity. Unbolting the runners has taken me 2 months...and involved an angle grinder. Hope you have more luck ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Got the seat out. The options as I see it are to use the same mounting as the lap belt, or 2 apparent mountings for something, behind the runners on the rear bulk head. Which should it be then? From what i have read above, the harness should go backwards & up between the bottom cushion & the seat back. Does this mean you end up sitting on the webbing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenDriver Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 I think you might end up sitting on part of the webbing - I'm still contemplating. If you look at a race seat many will have a slot cut in the seat where a strap will fit. Naturally I am reluctant to start knifing my leather seats. However if I make a new seat base then it is less of an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 you do sit on it with the leather seats. The important thing is that the seat takes no load at anytime - ie it can't go round the seat at all. HOOPY 500 kg R706KGU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Tonight I moved the crotch strap to the lap belt attachment. They dont adjust too freely now, but I am the only driver so I dont mind. They come up at the sides of the cushion under the led then up to the buckle. The belts are much more tighter than the previous location, but not as comfy. They are also more fiddly to fasten. The lap & crotch belts attached to the same point will be OK wont it? Hoopy said it would be so it must be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 lots of people have them sharing the same mount. i think some race scuts don't like it but its definitely better than it was before. HOOPY 500 kg R706KGU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisiden Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 I've taken a couple of digital photos looking down behind me seats at mounting points. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/chrisiden/cars/6point/6point.htm Are these the mounting points for a crotch belt? Edited by - chrisiden on 23 Jan 2003 22:36:29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drumster Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Yep, that's where my crotch straps are fitted, which means the straps are on top of the seat squab and you sit on them as Hoopy says. Chris Alston 1800 Supersprint - Loud and Proud 😬 ...well it only sounds fast officer 😳 Brooklands aeroscreens for those........flies in the teeth moments Drive it like you stole it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buda Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 mine too, sit on it, metal bits are cold in winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Elizabeth Posted January 24, 2003 Author Share Posted January 24, 2003 Don't have crutch attachment points like that on my 92 Supersprint, there is just the chassis member to bolt the seat runners thru. So have to attatch to lap belt mount (which looks the same). Then twixt seat back and cusion, so you still end up sitting on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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