Rover K engine - Oil leak from sump gasket

[jean materne]

Hi to all and just a few words of presentation before explaining a technical issue which may have been addressed previously (if yes, sorry, I couldn’t find it or did not spend enough time looking for it).

I’m from Belgium and I’ve just registered with the Club.

My car is an ex-academy 2003 Caterham fitted with a standard 1.6 Rover K engine.

I bought that car two years ago in the UK and back in Belgium, spent 8 months at doing what was necessary for a regular registration of it over here.

Finally, I was part of the continental group which attended the London Brighton Veteran Car Run beginning of November 2014.

 

I took the opportunity of the Christmas break for completing some maintenance (new cambelt, tensioner, water pump, oil filter, coolant, …) plus the replacement of the foam in the oil sump and the fitting of a new sump gasket, which I expected, would solve the oil leak problem which I’ve experienced from the beginning of the ownership of that car.

This was done very professionally (all the above was completed with the assistance of a friend who works every day  on Lotus Elise Rover K engines – and it’s much easier on the Caterham…) : the sump was removed a few days in advance, everything was cleaned and dried, the new gasket was put in place, the screws fastened according to the recommended sequence and with the right torque.

But the oil leak is still there.

An accurate examination reveals that the oil sweats from the upper and lower faces of the gasket, along the low side of the sump (not at the front of the engine, nor on the high side).

I'm wondering now.

Have we done something wrong? (We didn’t use any paste on the gasket)

Is there something special to do for avoiding this problem ?

It’s not difficult to imagine that this could logically be expected from the angle at which the engine is fitted plus the extension of the gasket inside the sump on the low side of it, which keep the oil level above the gasket and always in contact with it.

Could it be due to a defect of the sump ? We haven’t checked the planatary of the sump face as it looked OK.

I’d really appreciate to hear your comments and advices.

I can’t believe that this oil leak is a standard situation which the Rover K engine owners have just to live with.

If the subject has already been treated, please let me know where to find it.

Many thanks in advance.

Jean

[SM25T]

Hi Jean. I would look again for any scratches or damage to the sealing faces on the top of the sump and the underside of the engine. My k-series is very clean and dry, so it is not a common problem. Maybe see you at Elie's in a couple of weeks ? Ian

[Jonathan Kay]

Welcome

Jonathan

[SM25T]

I would first turn the sump bolts a little bit more at the place of the leak .... see if that stops it.

[jean materne]

Hi Ian and thanks for your answer.

Hopefully, I will attend Elie's party.

Although Belgium is not a large country, Elie doesn't live quite near to my place and that week-end will be a busy one.

But I will try to be present.

[jean materne]

Yes, possibly.

I've thought of doing it and it might help indeed but it has to be really a little bit more only as the the thread in the aluminium alloy engine block is more brittle compared to iron and I was told that the torque recommended by Rover should not be exceeded too much because of that.

 

[jean materne]

Thank you Jonathan.

And good night.

 

[Monte Busa]

If no obvious issue is found, and if snugging the bolts doesn't work, I HIGHLY recommend Loctite 574 as a sealant.  It works best metal to metal, but will harden anearobically and is completely impervious to oil.  Since I've started using it, I'll never go back to anything else.  

[elie boone]

Hi Jean, i never torqued the sump bolts and never had a tread stripped, i do fit Shnorr wahers under the allen bolt heads, it should be bone dry like any good X flow   . Like any sump i sequence the fastening in 3 cycles to asure an even load

[SM25T]

Did you check the top face of the sump was flat ?

[Julian H]

Hi Jean

Have you, or perhaps the previous owner maybe hit anything. Is it distorted, are there any [even very minor] cracks in it? If not, just check there are no cracks in the bottom of the engine too, maybe from a previous groundstrike, where a new sump pan has been fitted?

Mine weeped everso slightly, on investigation it was distorted [and cracked] but only visible from inside. And also a very minor crack at a bolt hole point. The "injury" was from a proud catseye on the crown of a road, at around 70mph. According to my man, I was very lucky not to have damaged the bottom of the engine at the bolt point too.

Cheers, Julian

[jean materne]

On the k-series engines fitted in the Elise, there is no gasket (but deeper sump and the oil level is under the engine-sump junction) and a sealant of that sort for metal to metal contact, is used indeed.

Would that work with the gasket ? I would not dare not using the gasket as the extension of it inside the sump is there for a good reason apparently (baffle plate effect - but I've read that some people make holes in it for limiting the pool effect when the engine is idle ..?).

 

[jean materne]

Yes, the sump has definitely hit something and possibly more than once in the previous life of the car.

It is apparent on the outside of it (worn rims on the bottom part and some dents on the front part ) and we noticed that it had been welded from the inside.

To answer Ian's question as well, the sealing face of the sump looks OK, we examined it carefully and didn't notice anything obviously wrong but we didn't tested it on a surface plate.

First conclusions from what I can read :

Provided that the sump (or the engine sealing face ...) is not damaged, the standard fitting with the Caterham gasket is perfectly sound and there should be no leakage of oil. this give me some hope.

I will remove the sump again and check it more accurately for possibly correcting the flatness if it's necessary.

If it was not possible, a new sump would be the ultimate option and the problem will be solved.

I'll try to post some pictures but I have first to find out how it works and now, I have something else to do ...

Thanks to everyone.

[jean materne]

Hi Elie,

There are spring washers under the allen bolts of my sump. Not sure what schnorr washers look like.

I'll call you soon.

 

[Jonathan Kay]

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/%24(KGrHqV,!iUE3S6MEi3TBOCb1(!0d!~~_1.JPG?set_id=8800004005

Jonathan

[Monte Busa]

Although it was designed for metal to metal surfaces, Loctite 574 works well as a way to help seal imperfections between mating surfaces, even when used with a paper gasket, quite well as a matter of fact.  Many engine builders actually recommend it as a gasket treatment. 

[Monte Busa]

Double post, sorry.

[revilla]

Hopefully this is of no relevance at all, but worth checking ...

For two years after I got my car I was searching for the cause of an oil leak. It turned out that when the original builder modified the engine from MG spec to Caterham spec, which involved grinding away some unused ribbing on the side of the block to allow the starter motor to fit, he had gone too deep and made a hole in the side of the block which had then been (poorly) repaired with epoxy resin.

Oil was seeping past the repair (which was completely hidden behind the starter motor) and very slowly tracking down the remainder of the rib to emerge along the between the upper and lower block (crank bearing ladder), where it tracked along the joint and made it appear that the joint itself was leaking. It could easily have run a bit further down and given the impression of a leaking sump gasket. This was exhaust side, rear of the engine, as I think yours is.

The actual rate of leakage was very slow which meant that it was hard to find where it was coming from, I never found the vertical track down from the hole to be oily as the oil was draining away pretty much as fast as it leaked, all I ever found was just oil along the joints lower down.

As I say, probably and hopefully nothing to do with your problem but if you do struggle to fix it, remove the starter and have a very close look at where the rib has been ground away behind it for signs of repair. I've since heard of two other people who managed to hole the block while grinding it and the margins between success and failure are actually alarmingly small.

In my case all attempts to effect a proper welded repair failed as the porous alloy had absorbed too much oil over the years and the welder was just chewing bigger holes out of the metal. In the end I rebuilt the engine from the ground up on a replacement block supplied by DVA and it's now good as new.

See here for more info. I'm afraid the links and photographs no longer work, so I've added a couple of pictures below of the epoxy patch repair detaching and the hole once all the epoxy was removed. As you can see, it was quite large once cleaned up!

Epoxy Patch Repair Detaching

Hole Once All the Epoxy was Removed

[CharlesElliott]

Mmmm, I've found K series sumps and gaskets to be pretty good.

If the face is in good condition and straight, then I'd probably try some blue to help seal it.

[JonL]

I thought I had a weeping gasket in my k series too, but after giving it all a good clean and dry and dusting with talcum powder I found it was coming from between the bell housing and the sump and working is easy along the lip of the gasket making it look like a leak from the sump. If nothing else, cleaning and dusting with talcum powder with allow you to identify exactly where you leak is coming from.

[jean materne]

Thanks Jon.

I'm going to check that possibility as well before removing the sump.

What have you had to do to solve your problem ?

[jean materne]

Thanks for this long explanation and interesting information.

I hope it is not that serious but I'll have a look.

 

[JonL]

Jean

My leak is actually from the rear crank seal in the engine which is leaking into the bell housing and then out between the bell housing and the sump (hopefully you can see where it is starting to leak in the picture). However the oil would wet the gasket and also cause a small drip on the bottom of the sump at teh front of the engine.

I have left it for about 9 months as it is a very small weep/leak with no perceptable drop in oil level in the engine over that time. When the car is serviced in April I will get it fixed - which is an engine out job.

Jon

Jon

[jean materne]

I have cleaned everything thoroughly again yesterday night.

I'll go and check this evening.

I should normally see a new drip at the bottom of the sump and edges of the gasket wet again; I'll try to see where on the gasket, the leak starts from exactly.

If it were the rear crank seal, I think the quantity (about one drip per day) would not be so large or it would mean that the seal is much damaged (?).

Engine out... !

Thanks Jon.

 

[SM25T]

May be a tiny piece of dirt on the gasket ?