Super_Rich_Bernie Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 Can anyone help me select the right helmet to buy? I have a Sparco Clubjet helmet (Open face, BS6658 type A) without an RAC approval sticker. I'd like a helmet which I can use for Trackdays, Sprints and Hillclimbs, & ocasionally being scared witless on the back of friends bikes. The Sparco is probably not sensible for motorcycling (open face). Is it OK for Trackdays or Speedevents? How do I get an approval sticker for it? Can I buy one helmet for all three purposes? all help appreciated Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Prior Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 As it's BSI type A approved, you need to pay an RACMSA man at a Sprint or other motorsport event to look at it and put a sticker on it. It's cheap - about a quid, I think. Then you can use it for motorsports to your hearts content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominic Berry Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 On the subject of lids, can anyone recommend somewhere in North Kent/S London that sell the RAC approved jobbies? Don't fancy Demon Tweeks as I'd like to try a few on. Dominic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgracing Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 A closed face helmet is needed for an open top car (IYSIM). I have seen people hillclimbing Caterhams with open face helmets. IMHO this is sheer madness. Unless you're going to race a car at circuits (I don't mean track days or sprints) you won't need a fireproof helmet. (Er, I think, someone will soon tell me if I'm talking b*ll*cks). AKAIK All car racing helmets are not valid for the road. If plod can spot you you might get pulled. Most fibreglass bike helmets can be used for hillclimbing and sprinting as long as you pays yer quid to the MSA man. Best compromise really. A Sparco closed face is pretty cheap (165GBP) for a Fireproof one. The ZV helmet is OK for a non fireproof helmet and is much cheaper. How much do you value your head ? Get the very best you can possibly afford and try them on in a shop with assistants who know what they are talking about. Don't buy mail order. Davebo C7 CAR Edited by - davebo on 21 Nov 2000 15:50:07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Payne Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 Dominic, Grand Prix Raceware in Chiswick (Power Road?) have a resonable range & are knowlegable about the rules & regulations. Regards Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Walker Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 Yes Grand Prix RaceWear are good. Visit their web site and Demon-Tweeks to have a look. I think you need to go for BS6658 Type A/FR now (I guess the FR stands for Fire Retardant) The one that looks good to me in the cheap bracket is the HISL Clubman FR - it's listed as BS6658 Type A/FR; RACMSA/FIA approved; fire retardant Nomex interior and is about £95 quid Zero rated for VAT. Apparently the best safety rating to go for is Snell 95 and the cheapest one I've found with this rating is OMP Integrale Formula at £224 quid + VAT from Demon Tweeks. But like you say it's best to try the thing on before you buy. However, I think Demon offer free delivery and collection of helmets if the size is wrong. Let me know what you go for as I need to get one also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACR Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 I've got a HISL Clubman FR - from Rallydesign (you can find them on the web but last time I checked the site was just scanned in pages from their brochure. Not much detail). However I paid £65. Not sure how the spend lots of money / save your head idea works. Any helmet will give much more protection (as long as it's to the regs) than no helmet. The fact that the manufacturers charge loads more for some doesn't make them loads better. Probably a step change between price boundarys - check what they are made of. Admittedly I'd rather use a top name, top price helmet but as I haven't got an FIA rollbar I'd probably end up decapitated. I'm sure if I'd paid £95 the helmet wouldn't be any better. It's worth trying some on though - I was dead lucky in that I got it mail-order, it fits well and is very comfy. I have since tried on a few others (of same size) and found them annoying or even painful. Fire-retardent is a must. If it saves your life but you end up disfigured for the sake of a few quid you'd be gutted. Piers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonray Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 According to the MSA, Snell SA 2000 rated helmets will be available this Christmas and will be valid for 10 years, for competition. Snell SA 95 may only do until 2003, though the MSA sometimes extends these deadlines. I've been caught out twice, with Snell SA90 and SA85 helmets, that each only gave me 5 years use. I'll be sure to get a 2000 this time. Of course, all this applies only to competition and not track days. Edited by - simonray on 28 Nov 2000 22:38:50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark.hall Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 On the price difference question, you may find that the cheaper helmets are made from polycarbonate rather that composite materials. The easiest way to tell is to see if the helmet has a vertical seam around it. Although it passes the BSI/Snell tests, they are definitely weaker. I know from painful experience! They also tend to be heavier. Also you cannot put stickers on to a polycarbonate lid, as, I believe, the adhesive causes problems. IMHO you should always buy the best helmet you can afford, fireproof or otherwise. A more expensive item should fit better, weigh less, and should provide optimum protection. You could wear a nomex balaclava as well. The balaclava will help keep the inside of your lid in good condition, as well as it's designated use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgracing Posted November 22, 2000 Share Posted November 22, 2000 I have heard that the HISL helmets are not worth buying. Yes, they have the rating, but the person I spoke to was incredulous at how they managed to get it. There's a lot of R&D needed to know how to protect a head in an impact. I believe that motorsport crash helmets are different from bike helmets due to thte different types of impact they can receive. Hence, motorsport helmets are not road legal for bikes. That R&D costs money. If you've got a cheap head, get a cheap helmet. Before anyone from HISL tries to sue me. I have never tried an HISL helmet nor do I have any experience of anyone being injured whilst wearing one. It's just what I have heard. Davebo C7 CAR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominic Berry Posted November 22, 2000 Share Posted November 22, 2000 Davebo A (biker) friend & I were discussing whether there were any differences between motorsport & bike lids. Can you expand further on the differences... When you say different types of impact what do you mean - a bang on the head is a bang on the headmad.gif. Dominic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ranson Posted November 22, 2000 Share Posted November 22, 2000 > Not sure how the spend lots of money / save your head idea works. Better helmets weigh less. This goes straight to the bottom line even in minor incidents that don't involve any impact, either to the car or to your head. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillPaul Posted November 22, 2000 Share Posted November 22, 2000 Having a *proper*, windscreenless superlight ;-), I use my (full-face) lid on the open road very frequently. The RAC's legal division told me some time ago that, since helmets were not a legal requirement for cars, there was no legislation governing minimum standards for their use on roads - ergo, a motorsport lid, used in a car, is perfectly legal whether it has BS-ratings or not. A lid used on a bike DOES, however, need BS-ratings. BUT, I would still tread cautiously when it comes to darkened visors - these are not legal on a motorbike and just serve to attract attention if Plod happens to see you in a car with one. Easier to avoid the argument with him in the first place IMHO.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted November 22, 2000 Share Posted November 22, 2000 Is it a valid argument that a lighter helmet will have less momentum in the event of an impact, and therefore be safer? Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonray Posted November 22, 2000 Share Posted November 22, 2000 Certainly, any hyperextension/hyperflexion of the c-spine will be amplified if the helmet is heavier and therefore the lighter the helmet the better. This is, of course, why in disciplines where high g-loadings are experienced, lighter helmets are necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 What do you think of these foam "neck brace" things that people wear Simon? I hear mixed opinions. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simos Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 Simonray, I've always been told that fibreglass helmets only last 5 years regardless of regs (carbonate last 3 years) because the materials degrade. This is especially true of the foams and other clever bits inside which do the actual deceleration of the head inside the helmet. The foam in medical orthotics etc are rated for one year for this reason. Does the SA2000 rating you refer to take this into account (new materials and gubbins) or is it just an administrative date to give manufacturing continuity for the suppliers (rules stability etc) Whilst we're on the subject the recommendation from the saftey authorities is that if you drop a helmet (solid impact on hard surface not the living room carpet) it's time for another helmet. This is unsurprisingly loudly upheld by the helmet manufacturers :-) I think you have to take a view on that I've got several scratches on mine. Cheers, Simon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonray Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 Mike I don't know of any evidence supporting these devices, but anything that limits the range of motion that your neck goes through in an accident, and its rate, ought to be a good thing. The FIA certainly think so, hence the head and neck support device that they have developed for Formula 1. Simon I suspect the ten year life is largely administrative, but probably takes into account the wear and tear that all helmets must suffer over such a period as well as any material degradation. Your observations about dropping a helmet etc. are correct i.e. any impact on the helmet necessitates replacing it. The manufacturers even warn about sticking things on a helmet because of the possibility that this will concentrate forces. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 Against them, I've heard that they move the load point to a more vulnerable part of the spine (closer to the skull?). Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 I know a neuro surgeon and we chatted about helmets once. He believes they are not necessarily beneficial in all circumstances; if you have a 'minor' bike accident, a helmet will undoubtedly save your face and jaw, as well as help prevent a headache. He believes, however, that there is a point at which you may be better off without a crash helmet; if the impact is severe, an unprotected head suffers extensive but localised damage; this is either fatal, or requires surgery and rehabilitation. In the case of the latter, he says localised injuries can be treated with a good degree of success. Part of a crash helmets function is to spread the force of impact. The same impact as above, on a helmetted head can result in the entire brain being damaged as it is 'rattled' within the skull; the victim is reduced to a vegatative state. He advocated wearing a crash helmet and explained the above merely as a point of interest - that in some situations the very nature of a crash helmet's function can result in greater injury. Had it not come from a neuro surgeon I might poopoo it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonray Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 Nick I'm a general/vascular surgeon (not a brain surgeon!) so I wouldn't dare to argue. However, I would have thought that a localised blow that severe to the head would be just as likely to cause the contre-coup (brain rattling around inside the skull) injuries. The helmet manufacturers always warn that their product can't protect against all eventualities and it may be that sometimes they just make you look prettier on the slab! As regards the foam collars, I don't have any info on high cervical spine injuries but I can see the possibility. C1 and C2 fractures are very often instantly fatal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bl0498 Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 Jonathan, I use a Bell Sport II helmet which is Snell 95 approved and a mid-weight helmet at approx £300. I tend to agree with the philosophy of having the best helmet you can sensibly afford. I would not like to use an open face helmet in a Caterham on a track day! Demon Tweeks (Wrexham) or Grand Prix Racewear (London) are some of the best suppliers for this type thing. One thing is certain though - you must go to a shop to try helmets on (or go to the Autosport show in Jan at the NEC). When I bought mine I was quite keen on an Arai helmet. In reality the helmets from that manufacturer are relatively narrow with a small aperture and I could barely get it over the ears - and I didn't think I had a big head!!! Best Regards, Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VC Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 Re open faced helmets and safety: Maybe I'm mad but I use a good quality open face with full MSA spec visor (down to bottom of helmet). Ok I'm at risk of a frontal impact breaking my jaw, but in other accidents I could be given mouth to mouth without removing the helmet. I am told that removing a helmet can be dangerous. Am I talking out of my bottom? Why is it considered that full face helemts are so much safer? Concerned.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 Simonray, I cannot remember the conversation we had exactly, but think I have got the gist of it right. I expressed (layman's) doubt at the time but he maintained that things are not always as straightforward as the laybod might think. I have heard the same re neck braces, ie that C1 and C2 can be more susceptible to fracture. No doubt circumstances vary and all you can do is go for the most embracing option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 I can't agree that no helmet would ever be safer. The force required to produce so called diffuse axonal injury in a helmeted skull and brain, if focused onto one point of the skull in a non-helmeted head, would almost definitely cause a significant and severe skull fracture with associated intra-cranial bleeding and/or contra coup injury. Either way you're buggered! But a lower force that you might get away with wearing a helmet would probably still kill you without one. Obvious I suppose or we wouldn't need helmets! Doctors, eh Simon? We take an obvious statement and make it sound so complex! smile.gif Alex Wong www.alexwong.net _________ / / ___ _/______ /_ ___ / (_) (_)/ /`-'/o/ _______ o/`-'/ / /// ( VDU7X ) / / /___/--_________/--/___/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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