K-series or X-flow or Vauxhall or Cosworth?

[microlightman]

 

Trying to figure out the price-performance characteristics of used Caterhams is keeping me awake at nights. Can anybody help get me focused on what I really should be looking at in what will hopefully be my first loving encounter with the beast?

 

Should I get all hung up about the engine, or are there more important factors like the powder coated chasis is looking tired?

 

I'm told the more recent (and of course more expensive) K-series engine is lighter so better suited. Will I really notice the difference? Assuming a dedion chassis, are there other associated differences which come with the K-cars to account for a 2nd hand price hike that looks like the cost of a new engine? Is the engine that good that a 1.4K ~128bhp will do it?

 

Thanks for any advice whilst I go and try the options - and the dealers patience.

 

[Casbar]

I'm from the Live axle xflow fraternity.

 

Every enigine type has its advantages and disadvantages, along with whether you get a live axle or de-dion car.

 

The best advice I can offer, is to attend one of the monthly meets, talk to as many owners as possible, bag a few rides, then make a decison.

 

I live in Salisbury, so happy to take you out for a blast in a quick xflow, also have mates who have K's and Vx's

 

Happy hunting

[MikeW]

Good luck with the search. Certainly worth getting along to a local meeting as suggested above. Which engine is down to personal preference and budget but have you figured out what you are likely to use the car for? If it is mainly road use then you won't be dissappointed with any of the engines because you will get nowhere near the limit. If you plan to use on track then you will need to think about tyres and possibly anti-cav tank or dry sump just depending on which way you go.

Have you got a budget in mind?

 

 

MikeW

 

W89 TVV Grads Car Race No 79

Membership No 6582

[Michael]

To be honest, as long as you don't go for a Vauxhall you can't go wrong.

[captain chaos]

Michael,

Microlightman is a new member to our fold and is asking for friendly advice. Each version has it's strength and weaknesses. You obviously don't appreciate that everyone has their own requirements and desires. If your comment was tongue in cheek then you should have placed a smilie at the end of your posting. In any case, I think we're pretty much bored of the old Vx v K series banter so let's just let micro'man join up at a local meet and take his pick from what will undoubtedly be a fine array of machinery to choose from, no matter what 4 pot it's powered by.

 

Micro'man,

Area meets are the best bet. that's how I started. Which area are you based in?

[EFA]

Sounds like Chaos might be going over to the dark side.......

 

Arnie Webb

The Fat Bloke 😳 in a not so Slow Vauxhall

[Rob Morris]

As a quick reply to the silly reply "as long as its not Vauxhall" I would say the answer is

 

 

Vauxhall as nothing else lasts 😬

 

 

To be honnest you should take Captain Chaos advice and seek out your local area. Each engine has its anvantages over the others.

 

K's are light and tend to be more economical but can be fragile when tuned

Vx 16V are heavier, strong and very cheap to tune.

X Flow are also heavier, leak oil a little, cheap to fix with simple engineering.

 

Obviously there are variations on each of these (i.e. 1.4k to 1.8VVc's & 1.6 to 2.0 Vx with some being injected & 1.6 to 1.7 X-Flow) the size of your budget will eliminate some of the above, but I would suggest that you look for a good history and knowledgable owner.

 

There are plenty of cars to choose from so unless you want one for £5k Or it must be a JPE (Tunned Ltd Ed Vx) then take your time and visit a few area meetings.

 

Either way have fun and if I can help please feel free to call (01952) 240730 you want be the first or last.

[Rob Morris]

As a quick reply to the silly reply "as long as its not Vauxhall" I would say the answer is

 

 

Vauxhall as nothing else lasts 😬

 

 

To be honnest you should take Captain Chaos advice and seek out your local area. Each engine has its anvantages over the others.

 

K's are light and tend to be more economical but can be fragile when tuned

Vx 16V are heavier, strong and very cheap to tune.

X Flow are also heavier, leak oil a little, cheap to fix with simple engineering.

 

Obviously there are variations on each of these (i.e. 1.4k to 1.8VVc's & 1.6 to 2.0 Vx with some being injected & 1.6 to 1.7 X-Flow) the size of your budget will eliminate some of the above, but I would suggest that you look for a good history and knowledgable owner.

 

There are plenty of cars to choose from so unless you want one for £5k Or it must be a JPE (Tunned Ltd Ed Vx) then take your time and visit a few area meetings.

 

Either way have fun and if I can help please feel free to call (01952) 240730 you want be the first or last.

[alicat]

Microlightman

 

I too agonised over the which engine, what state of tune etc. etc. etc. as your are

 

I spoke with several people and looked at various cars. Quite early on I decided on a K Series, but which one 1.4, 1.6, 1.8 SS VVC etc. I went out and drove various cars and to be honest on the road there was no really noticeable difference between them when driven on the road. ❗

 

The advice I was given was buy on spec and condition ❗. So I bought a Road Sport Limited Edition, 1.4kss, six speed, leather, metallic paint, FIA Bar, Carbon fibre etc. etc. No regrets, used as a road car only and excellent fun.

 

Alicat

 

 

[alicat]

PS Photo of car here

 

 

[captain chaos]

Arn,

Don't be silly we know Vx's rule but i didn't want to sound narrow minded like Mike.

Anyway, have you done any mods to the car over winter? I've come off carbs and gone over to TB's, plus my ridiculously hard dampers have been revalved by Spax.

[EFA]

Only the development of my carbon prop Gary....

 

Arnie Webb

The Fat Bloke 😳 in a not so Slow Vauxhall

[captain chaos]

Very trick Arn'

What's the weight saving 🤔

[eric]

my personal advice is :

 

Choose the engine which is the nicest for you.

 

So you will be happy when you take off the bonnet.

 

To be honest, just a little I like all the engines for the seven, but mine I find it nice, so I am happy with

 

Another point of view is your budget, may be you could be helped by this side of the question (don't forget to include the reliability in your calculation)

 

In fact, all are good but so differents that in fact it is easy to choose

 

I was forgetting an important subject : your driving style, cool with a lot of torque, quick at 7000 rvs, ....

 

I hope you will find your way

[Sheds Moderator]

Eric is quite right, I think your own driving style is very important, along with the proposed use. If you are a racer/track day user you will be happy with a race spec engine that delivers max power at 7000+ rpm, but it's hard work keeping the thing on the boil on the road. My personal experience of a 1.4Kss (for m'man's benefit this is a 138bhp@7400 Minister built 1.4 K series) is that while it sounds FANTASTIC and goes like hell if you cane it, it lacks torque at low revs, as you might expect. It has also disgraced itself by blowing a head gasket and I know I'm not alone in this. My experience of Vauxhalls, OTOH, albeit outside 7s, is that they have loads of torque in std. trim and are basically indestructible. Ask any taxi driver in a Cav, they seem to drop a new camshaft in every 150,000 miles and drive it some more. Yeah, maybe they are heavy, but so was an ex girlfriend of mine and I never complained.

 

 

[captain chaos]

batteredoldsupersport, 😬

[Michael Peterson]

Rob:

 

My X-flows have never leaked, the occasional belch or fart, but no leaks

 

No officer, the wheel is on the RIGHT side.

Red Super Sprint De Dion 6 speed

[murph7355]

Do a search in the archives as the relative merits of each have been done many times over. I think the most balanced precis was done by Peter Carmichael, so if you search for his name, 'K series', 'Vx', 'xflow' and other such words you should find it (think it was earlier in 2002 but might have been '01).

 

As a slight aside, any engine can be fragile when tuned. If the right measures are taken during build and use there's no reason why any of the engine choices available for a 7 shouldn't give many miles of trouble free service. This topic, however, has also been done to death.

 

Only real way for you to sort this subject out is to try a few examples of each - because even two Vxs (K's, Cosworths etc) can feel very, very different depending on the rest of the spec and how they're set up.

[puremalt]

If you like getting stuck in mechanically,then a xflow will be good fun, make a great noise and be a laugh. If you can stand 20-23 mpg that is. The K s are economical even when 'enjoyed'- relatively that is.

 

Get it out, the weather's dry

[roammmm]

Hi µLman

 

 

I will not tell you what should be your choice, I will only talk about mine and maybe some of my expectations will meet yours.

 

I owned 1.6 K 5 speed (115 HP) and now 1.8 VVC K (143-150 ? HP French series) 6 speed.

The following is only my personnal appraisal, not meaning the K series are the best choice !

 

Generally speaking, the choice of K series was because I did not want a car too old (I consider old = chassis and any other parts tired, history unclear ) and injection allows to go far (400-450 km with 1 filled tank) without seeking gas stations ! Moreover young cars are more likely to be mint. No racing car wanted. I wanted easy maintenance (Rover engine for Rover Stores in France !) and no nightmare in seeking for a missing Ford joint which manufacture stopped 10 years ago...

 

1.6 K was reachable for my first budget, but the car was not that powerfull at low revs (and I drive A LOT in the mountains : little corners etc ).

My budget significantly grew up and I could aford a brand new 1.8 K VVC 6 speed.

Firstly, the engine has power at low torke and (there I do not agree with above previous comment saying that all engine are the same for road use) incredibly much more pleasure to drive thanks to this torke and also to the wonderfull 6 speed gearbox. Sound is nice enough to my ear. No need for more because I do not expect to get deaf on long trips...

 

As mentionned by the other mates, budget rules. After, decide if you can take the risk to have more maintenance (can you DIY ?). I really reco 6 speed

[yankeedoodoo]

Zetec is curiously absent in this discussion. The basic motor is sturdy, easily modified and reliable. Such cars might be available @ better prices also. Then again, it's just about the only modern 4 valve option here in California. It also sounds rather nasty!! At least try one before dismissing this option.

[microlightman]

 

All,

 

Thanks everso for the info, advice and a great starting point; and I apologise for turning a well worn crank.

 

I take the point about "feel", and also found the referenced Peter Carmichael lecture (circa sept/oct 2000) in the K vs Vx debate from Alex Wong. (Did that challenge ever happen?). Interestingly, still no references to the weights or dynamic weights anywhere.

What was comforting was the distinct lack of horror stories with the older engines. I had imagined the Vx to be like trying to feed a toddler with a tablespoon!

Spoke to a man who used to fix MG-rovers for a living. He says they used to line them up for head gaskets each winter. Said something about replacing it with 3 sandwiched together!

 

I guess I'm more familiar with lumpier cars therefore personally might prefer the less frenetic drive at the cost of poise, which I wonder if I'll even notice on the road and if I get organised that odd track day. But the jury is still out, so any chance of taking up those offers of a quick blast?